Closed Cars: What's The Point?

Ok, I have to ask: Why do some trains (on any railroad, really) run with closed cars? I mean, isn't it wasteful to run with more cars than you actually need?

Yes, but it's also expensive to remove cars from a train and put them on again later. If the unnecessary cars are open, they have to be manned, so the crew expense is higher.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

1) It's more wasteful to drag said train to a yard to cut and add cars during the day. And- not all trains terminate at or near a yard, so then you'd have to deadhead the train to a yard, cut the cars, send the train back out to meet its schedule.

2) On runs where fewer people will populate the train, it helps to keep the population condensed to a few cars so that the conductors can collect all fares in a quick and efficient manner. (think the 1:00 am trains from GCT and certain Sunday runs)

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

1) It's more wasteful to drag said train to a yard to cut and add cars during the day. And- not all trains terminate at or near a yard, so then you'd have to deadhead the train to a yard, cut the cars, send the train back out to meet its schedule.

2) On runs where fewer people will populate the train, it helps to keep the population condensed to a few cars so that the conductors can collect all fares in a quick and efficient manner. (think the 1:00 am trains from GCT and certain Sunday runs)

-otto-

That sounds more right to me than anything else. I mean, I can understand them dragging closed cars from Grand Central to the end of a line to prepare for the next morning's commute, or vice versa, but besides that, I don't see any other reason.

I've been on mid-day trains from Pok that have several closed cars, and as the cars fill up closer to the city, they'll open up more cars. It's never really bothered me, execpt that it makes the cars more densely populated.

Also it's a process to remove cars from a consist. Think of all the things that must happen. (In this example, I'm talking diesel cars) First, the consist has to be taken to someplace where the cars can be stored, and then you need to cut off how ever many cars. But, you have to make sure that you leave a cab control car at the south end. Since many times there is only one cab control car, you'll have to do a switching move to pull the middle cars out of the consist. This will one take a fair amount of time, and leg work of uncoupling cars and resetting up the brakes, but how much of an advantge is there? Also, how many times do these trains only make a one way trip with closed cars. Say a mid day train from Pok to GCT with some closed cars then turns to an evening train with all cars open.

I guess I'm just a big kid who ALWAYS wants the head end open to look out the front.

[quote]2) On runs where fewer people will populate the train, it helps to keep the population condensed to a few cars so that the conductors can collect all fares in a quick and efficient manner. (think the 1:00 am trains from GCT and certain Sunday runs)[/quote]

I think that point carries little weight. With harsh penalties for buying tickets on train it SEEMS conductors jobs are getting easier. I've been on many trains where they collect tickets in about a quarter of the time it takes to get to 125 St. Then sit around the rest of the ride. Keep all the cars open and have these guys earn thier pay.

If you want to work the safety angle to keep less cars open, then i'll buy that.

Here are a couple of more points to add to this discussion:

MN never knows exactly how many people will show up for any given run. Sure, they have a good idea, but they never know for sure. The obvious goal is to have enough available seats for the average number of people that they expect, from historical data, will ride any given train.

I too have often been on trains with closed cars at the head-end. This only seems to occur on off-peak trains, from my experience on the NH line, and on the weekends in particular.

The closed cars give the conductor the option to make more seats available if he/she needs them. Obviously, the fewer cars you use in any give consist the higher the chances are that there will be people standing due to lack of available seats.

A few good reasons to have closed cars at the start of a run:
It’s easier for the conductors to collect tickets with fewer cars open.
The extra cars allow a conductor to add seats, when/if that they are needed.
A car that remains closed for an entire run does not have to be cleaned at the end of a run.

A few bad reason for having closed cars at the start of a run:
If all cars were open then the passengers would have a greater selection of “good” seats (i.e. not middle seats.)
There is more wear-and-tear on the equipment (the closed cars) when they are in a consist, but not used by passengers.


It would be interesting to know what the work rules say about staffing on a train with closed cars at the start of a run. I.e. if you have an 8-car train, with 4 closed cars; does MN have to staff it for 8 cars or 4 cars? I would imagine that the rules are rather complex, since working a local from Stamford is more work compared to working a morning rush hour train that only makes a few stops before running express to GCT.

BenH wrote:It would be interesting to know what the work rules say about staffing on a train with closed cars at the start of a run. I.e. if you have an 8-car train, with 4 closed cars; does MN have to staff it for 8 cars or 4 cars? I would imagine that the rules are rather complex, since working a local from Stamford is more work compared to working a morning rush hour train that only makes a few stops before running express to GCT.

I wonder about that. On the express from from Pok to GCT, there are 2 conductors, and on the local daytime from Pok to GCT with the closed cars there are 2 conductors. So, I just always assumed that they just always have 2 conductors. Is there times when they have more than 2?

I guess it just always depends on size. I mean, you'd think most on-peak trains would have more conductors, but then again there's so many trains at that time it might be hard to get more than 2 on a specific run.

Jondude11 wrote:I guess it just always depends on size. I mean, you'd think most on-peak trains would have more conductors, but then again there's so many trains at that time it might be hard to get more than 2 on a specific run.

Well, but the on peak trains tend to just hit a smaller number of stops, then express in. I know riding from Pok to GCT on the Express, so Pok, New Hamburg, Beacon, then express, unless you were in the right car, you wouldn't get your ticket taken until after Beacon, and it could be some ways. So the car I sat in almost always got our tickets check out of Pok, so I could go to sleep or whatever and not have to worry about that.

It makes no sense for a crew to open more cars than are needed. Many
reasons for this. Passengers spread out result in missed fares and missed
tickets collected, some platforms will only hold four or six cars so it makes
no sense to have a ten car train with all cars open when you only have
enough passengers to open six cars, sometimes when there is track or
other work, it is necessary to run on an inside (express) stop using bridge
plates and only one car in the entire train can usually platform at a bridge
plate and most importantly, if there were an emergency, a crew member
will be much closer by for assistance.
I don't think Metro-North conductors/trainpeople spend very much time if
any sitting around doing nothing.
Noel Weaver

Metro-North runs trains with perhaps the fewest number of conductors in the NY Metro Area. My typical 10 car Hudson Line train, might have 2 crew + engineer.

In NJT, just yesterday, I was on a three car train from Hoboken. Three crew members. A typical NEC train that I observe having 10-12 cars usually has 5-6 conductors.

LIRR, I'm not sure of, but I think they have a C/R usually for every three cars?

andy wrote:Metro-North runs trains with perhaps the fewest number of conductors in the NY Metro Area. My typical 10 car Hudson Line train, might have 2 crew + engineer.

In NJT, just yesterday, I was on a three car train from Hoboken. Three crew members.

That sounds right for NJT. Some express Dover trains will drop a trainman at Summit to work a local train eastward. The express has all the pax it will gather by Summit. I think the usual staffing is a crew member for each 2 cars, with minimums.

I take the train in and out of Glenbrook most times when I go to the city, and usually on the weekends and late at night during the week there are several closed cars, sometimes only one open. I doesn't really make any sense to have any more cars open when one is more then enough for the riders at that time, especially if not all cars can make the platform. A couple weeks ago on my train in to GCT with a group of friends we couldn't find seats other then in the middle, so we decided to just stand. When the conductor came to collect tickets he saw us standing and opened up the last car, a few other people came in but it turned out to be a really nice ride.

on any train there is only ONE conductor, the others are trainmen (assistant conductors) just like a ship only has one Captain.