Cardinal discussion

mtuandrew wrote:. . . what problem areas (on CSX, ignoring Dyer and north) need to be fixed to bring the ex-Monon/NYC route CHI-IND fully up to Class 3 and 59 mph MAS? I'm including hand-thrown switches, slow crossovers, short and poorly-spaced sidings, dark territory and the like too.

If you really want to dig into it, Indiana Highway Dept paid for a consultant's study, giving exactly the results you would expect: cost too much, not enuff added pax.
http://www.in.gov/indot/files/Amtrak_Co ... s_2013.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note that the report considered a once-daily Hoosier and the twice-daily alternatives in their virgin purity. That is, they were uncorrupted by any concern about how having a daily Cardinal plus one or two daily Hoosier States to make two (or three!) frequencies would affect results on these Indy-CHI trains.

In my consultant's report, I will assert that the proposed $250 million of upgrades, taking 25 minutes out of a daily Cardinal's run, plus adding one or two daily Hoosiers to complement the service, would make the Cardinal's operating results at least breakeven, and probably positive.

And if what of, say taking an hour and a half off the schedule and having multiple departures daily? I wonder what sort of cost could be expected for competitive passenger rail

Thanks, Alcochaser and Woody, that's exactly what I wanted to understand. Sounds like the same problem facing the Huntington-Cincinnati segment: CSX's traffic is so far down on a secondary through route that isn't as competitive as its primary routes, it is cutting back maintenance and reducing speeds (or maintaining low speeds.)

Not exactly. CSX has poured a TON of money into the Monon in the last two years. So much so that study is pretty much out of date and worthless.

CTC has been installed in many places on the Monon.
New CTC sidings have been installed on the Monon.
New welded rail has been installed on the monon.
A new CTC connection was just installed in Crawfordsville, that speeds moves on the connection track Amtrak uses.

All this was put in because of the Magnetation plant and the Ethanol trains.

So much so that there is NO good reason CSX could not restore 79MPH operation to the Cardinal between Crawfordsville and the GTW connection outside Chicago in places that support it.

The only reason it was dropped was the old jointed rail. (This was back in the very late 90s). Most of that is LONG gone. I am guessing they are just too cheap for the extra inspection and levels of defects that need to be checked for.

This certainly appears to be a lucrative traffic source for Chessie:

https://www.magnetation.com/reynolds-in-iron-ore/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She's "not exactly" fixing up the Monon so that a passenger train can operate at 79mph (and on which she could have her "purr-fect sleep"); she's fixing it up to handle new traffic for which there is no reasonable and practical way to ship other than rail.

Something tells me that if things came down to who gets over the road first, Amtrak/Iowa Pacific or the iron ore pellets, I think the latter will win.

Woody wrote: In my consultant's report, I will assert that the proposed $250 million of upgrades, taking 25 minutes out of a daily Cardinal's run, plus adding one or two daily Hoosiers to complement the service, would make the Cardinal's operating results at least breakeven, and probably positive.

Wow, 25 minutes out of a 27 hour trip!

Especially now that CSX has done the meat of the work, and now all that needs to happen is someone to come up with the extra $$$ for the extra inspections and probably a little more for maintence.

That is a lot less $$$ then is needed for the refurb work CSXT has already done.

Even now, the CTC connection at Ames (Crawfordsville) saves Amtrak some time. The old connection was an obnoxious setup. It was a hand throw in the middle of an automatic diamond left reverse. Amtrak had to creep at a pretty slow rate thru there. Now the diamond is gone and it's a CTC connection switch. The curve has been realigned. Probably worth 5 minutes alone!

Also before I forget. There are rumors that the P&E portion of the line (Crawfordsville to Indy) will get upgrades to signaling in the form of CTC, and possibly a siding near ROSS or NEW ROSS IN.

There is more to this then Ore and Ethanol. They removed a couple clearance limitations too. The NS bridge in Lafayette got raised or undercut, and an overpass in Crawfordsville got adjusted. There is no reason to do that for ore and ethanol. There is speculation that has to do with the LIRC upgrades. As the Magentation slowdown has done nothing to stop CSX upgrading stuff.

bdawe wrote:Don't let your hate for the Cardinal obscure actual corridor traffic benefits

You mean the Chicago-Indy corridor which already has daily service? Or the Charlottesville-New York corridor which also already has daily service (I believe twice daily)? No need for Congress to spend our federal money to make a 1100 mile train daily so Cincinnati can have 7 days of 3am trains instead of 3. There are plenty of other ways to better serve Cincinnati without taking a huge chunk of our wallets.

If your curious. Google "South Raub Indiana" and you can see construction work on the now completed CTC siding of you click google earth.

There is no town near the other, but it is at 41°14'56.40"N and 87°23'24.13"W between Lowell and Shelby

You might have failed to notice that Woody was discussing improvements in Indiana...

Not sure, but the Boy Scouts want a daily Cardinal: AllAboardOhio

PRESS RELEASE EXCEPTION TO FAIR-USE:

Boy Scouts seek daily Amtrak Cardinal

Dec. 20, 2016
For Immediate Release

Contact: Derek Bauman 513-262-0345
[email protected]

All Aboard Ohio and other passenger rail advocates seeking daily Amtrak Cardinal service have gained a major ally in the Boy Scouts of America.

In a Dec. 15, 2016 letter to Amtrak President Wick Moorman, BSA Chief Scout Executive Michael B. Surbaugh urged Amtrak to increase its Cardinal service from thrice-weekly to daily. He urged it on at least a temporary basis during July 2017 when the BSA will begin holding its quadrennial National Jamboree at Summit Bechtel Reserve at Mount Hope, WV. An even larger event will occur in 2019 when the World Scout Jamboree is held at that location, near Amtrak Cardinal stations along the New River Gorge National River, a 70,000-acre recreation area.

BSA had been using the Philmont Scout Ranch near Raton, NM and large groups of scouts took Amtrak’s daily Southwest Chief from Los Angeles, Chicago and points in between, to get there. The same large passenger loads will descend upon the Cardinal, but will be limited by its three-days-per-week operation.

BSA became aware of proposals and issues surrounding expanding the Cardinal to a daily schedule when BSA representatives attended the Sept. 23, 2016 Cardinal Conference. That event was organized by All Aboard Ohio and Amtrak, and hosted by the Cincinnati USA Chamber of Commerce in Cincinnati, OH, a station stop on the Cardinal route.

“More than 100 people attended the Cardinal Conference,” said All Aboard Ohio Vice Chair Derek Bauman. “While stakeholders learned of the challenges involved in getting the Cardinal to run daily, we were also energized by the level of interest by people in the room to press forward and tackle those challenges. We are thankful to the BSA for its letter which shows that interest in this enhanced rail service remains strong.”

“I hope Amtrak will consider the opportunity to take advantage of the Jamboree window to operate daily service on the Cardinal and to work with local tourism representatives to maximize this unique opportunity,” Surbaugh wrote in his letter to Amtrak. “I know I speak for all when I say that enhanced service would be a welcome addition offering the possibility of increased ridership and visitors to the New River Gorge.”

The West Virginia Governor’s Conference on Tourism unanimously passed a motion in favor of daily Cardinal service in the Fall of 2016. In a 2010 Performance Improvement Plan, Amtrak projected that ridership on the Cardinal route would increase by 96 percent if the train operated daily. While Amtrak estimated the operating subsidy could increase by several million dollars per year, the subsidy per passenger was projected to decrease.

Amtrak cannot legally expand service that increases its operating losses without identifying funding to offset it. Congress provided that funding program in 2015 as part of its Fixing America’s Surface Transportation Act by authorizing Restoration & Enhancement Grants with a total program ceiling of $20 million per year. However Congress has yet to appropriate any funding to that program. States and other political jurisdictions may also sponsor passenger rail services under Sec. 209 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008.

Amtrak estimates it has enough locomotives and passenger cars to run the Cardinal as often as five days per week. A long-delayed order of 130 Viewliner II passenger cars from CAF USA in Elmira, NY is finally producing the promised baggage cars, diners, sleepers and baggage dorm cars. Enough cars may be on hand by July to offer daily Cardinal service for the BSA, if funding can be found to offset the added operating cost.

The last time Amtrak offered daily service on its Cardinal route was Sept. 30, 1981, when the train was discontinued due to federal budget cuts. Senator Robert Byrd (D-WV) got some funding restored, bringing the Cardinal back on Jan. 8, 1982 as a thrice-weekly service. The train was rescheduled from serving Cincinnati in daytime so it could serve West Virginia at more convenient times. The train is named the Cardinal because that is the state bird in every state through which the train passes

I'll note our member "Philly" even has a comment posted.

REMINDER: Let's be judicious in our use of quotes, please. It's not necessary to quote the immediately preceding quote in it's entirety (especially if it end's up with multiple, "nesting" quotes), nor to quote something in full when responding to a specific point, particularly if the reply is only a single sentence. It makes the search function a bit more difficult to navigate.

Truth be told, Amtrak probably could accomplish this mission on a charter basis during the window. BSA contracts for a certain number of seats per day at a mutually agreed price (hopefully covering costs). Amtrak supplies seats in both directions to serve the the Summit.

Since many in Congress have claim to have been boy scouts maybe--------
1. Provide enough funds for at least a full week of daily Cardinals. Amtrak can usually surge their fleets for short times such as Thanksgiving ?

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:

bdawe wrote:Don't let your hate for the Cardinal obscure actual corridor traffic benefits

...No need for Congress to spend our federal money to make a 1100 mile train daily so Cincinnati can have 7 days of 3am trains instead of 3. There are plenty of other ways to better serve Cincinnati without taking a huge chunk of our wallets.

FALSE. No huge chunk of money at all.

The Cardinal loses money, but far less than the Empire, Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Sunset Ltd, Coast Starlight, and others.

The 2010 PRIIA study concluded that a daily Cardinal would almost double ridership (up by 96%) and near break-even on operating costs. Of course, there's been population growth since then. More and better connections in Chicago coming soon on the Lincoln service St Louis-Chicago, the Wolverines Detroit-CHI, and the service coming on the Quad Cities trains. And the Amtrak brand is much stronger: better OTP, some new locomotives and baggage cars, other new equipment on order. Things should be even better in 2018 than was forecast 8 years ago.

There's no reason to claim that a daily Cardinal would increase losses. More likely the daily train will make a positive return.