Cab Rides In Today's Times

As an engineer or conductor for that matter, if you are in the operating cab of a locomotive than you should not be reading anything but company related material such as timetables, bulletins or your operating rule book. My point is the idiot who shot the video flat-out accuses the engineer of reading a newspaper when really he couldn't see what it was he was reading. If he was reading a newspaper than by all means investigate the situation and take action accordingly but for this coward that sat blacked out on TV to just go pointing the finger without proper evidence is crap!

chrisjz wrote: My point is the idiot who shot the video flat-out accuses the engineer of reading a newspaper when really he couldn't see what it was he was reading. If he was reading a newspaper than by all means investigate the situation and take action accordingly but for this coward that sat blacked out on TV to just go pointing the finger without proper evidence is crap!

The accuser's approach isn't all that unreasonable. Maybe he should have said "reading something" rather than "reading a newspaper" (if he did in fact say "newspaper"...i didnt see the report). He had video of what he saw, what more can ask for? (clearer video obviously, but still he was making do with the camera he had) Perhaps he saw it was a newspaper but the camera's resolution wasn't high enough to capture it. Whether it was a newspaper or not, should a rider be forced to make that disctinction, or should they just be allowed to report what they "saw" and let someone investigate. Maybe this rider thought it was inappropriate to be reading at all, regardless of the subject matter.

I agree it is kind of cowardly to have his face blacked out. Was he expecting some kind of physical intimidation? Maybe he was trying to make trouble for the crew because he doens't like them.

Back to blacked out windows, wouldn't management prefer to have translucent windows so engineers have the feeling of "being watched"? Employees are much more likely to follow the rules when there is the possibility of someone (management or customer) watching. On the other hand, this isn't exactly the kind of press SEPTA wants, so I suppose in the interest of keeping the public's noses out of the behind-the-scenes details blacked out windows might be a possibility.

Quite possibly, the person in question did see a newspaper with his own two eyes, but couldn't capture it with his camera. I'll admit that it happens out there, has been for years, and not just at SEPTA. I certainly do not condone such practices on the operating end of any moving locomotve, but if the engineer that was filmed on that newscast were on an AEM-7, for instance, the whistleblowing concerned passenger would not have had a clue about what was going on up there. I'm really wondering about the legality of filming a locomotive engineer operating a train, or filming anything up there, is anyway.

flynnt wrote:

chrisjz wrote: My point is the idiot who shot the video flat-out accuses the engineer of reading a newspaper when really he couldn't see what it was he was reading. If he was reading a newspaper than by all means investigate the situation and take action accordingly but for this coward that sat blacked out on TV to just go pointing the finger without proper evidence is crap!

The accuser's approach isn't all that unreasonable. Maybe he should have said "reading something" rather than "reading a newspaper" (if he did in fact say "newspaper"...i didnt see the report). He had video of what he saw, what more can ask for? (clearer video obviously, but still he was making do with the camera he had) Perhaps he saw it was a newspaper but the camera's resolution wasn't high enough to capture it. Whether it was a newspaper or not, should a rider be forced to make that disctinction, or should they just be allowed to report what they "saw" and let someone investigate. Maybe this rider thought it was inappropriate to be reading at all, regardless of the subject matter.

I agree it is kind of cowardly to have his face blacked out. Was he expecting some kind of physical intimidation? Maybe he was trying to make trouble for the crew because he doens't like them.

Back to blacked out windows, wouldn't management prefer to have translucent windows so engineers have the feeling of "being watched"? Employees are much more likely to follow the rules when there is the possibility of someone (management or customer) watching. On the other hand, this isn't exactly the kind of press SEPTA wants, so I suppose in the interest of keeping the public's noses out of the behind-the-scenes details blacked out windows might be a possibility.

Engineers are being watched all the time. Its called the big brother black box recorder on the locomotives, and it records everything. Whether it's a newspaper, a bulletin order, an Amrak TSRB, or whatever other distraction, passengers (or in today's colloquial customers) have no business filming anything on a moving locomotive. I'll reiterate from my post above that I don't condone reading a newspaper on a moving locomotive by ANYONE in the operating cab; but what if the engineer were looking sideways out of the engine at the scenery along the route (which some do out of sheer boredom), would someone film that and send it into the news. Maybe I'm a little biased in my views because of the nature of my work.

flynnt wrote:

They blew the story way out of proportion when the engineer could have been reading bulls or a schedule.

I didn't see the story, but does it matter what he was reading?

I don't know what SEPTA's regs are, so I am posing this from a philosophical standpoint. Is it dangerous to read while operating a train?

-If yes, it shouldn't matter what he was reading. He should be in trouble whether he was reading something work related or not.
-If no, it shouldn't matter what he was reading. Let him read whatever he wants.

As far as I am concerned, the engineer's job is the get the safely train from A to B. It doesn't matter to me how he does that.

Its an acceptable practice for an engineer to gaze over a company published bulletin order, general order, schedule, or anything else that is pertinent to the movement of their train. A newspaper, obviously is not regarded in the above manners. The video on the news did not conclusively show that the engineer was reading a newspaper, or any other periodicals for that matter.

Was riding the R3 to West Trenton today when I noticed an older guy casually standing by the front window just enjoying the view. The conductor told him twice to stay away from the door. By the time we stopped at Wayne, the engineer came out and forcefully told the guy to take his seat. He was not interested in being watched at all.

whovian wrote: I'm really wondering about the legality of filming a locomotive engineer operating a train, or filming anything up there, is anyway.

Pretty sure it is legal. However, it is certainly within SEPTA's authority to prohibit photography/filming on their property(e.g. from inside the train.)

Engineers are being watched all the time. Its called the big brother black box recorder on the locomotives, and it records everything.

It records everything that pertains to movement of the train, but not a video of what the engineer is doing (or am I wrong here?). Something like the engineer looking at the scenery, smoking, reading, won't show up if only train movements are recorded.

I don't think there are many riders who are out to "bust" an engineer. At the same time, no one wants to be monitored as they're doing their job.

jfrey40535 wrote:Was riding the R3 to West Trenton today when I noticed an older guy casually standing by the front window just enjoying the view. The conductor told him twice to stay away from the door. By the time we stopped at Wayne, the engineer came out and forcefully told the guy to take his seat. He was not interested in being watched at all.

That was me.

I carry written SEPTA photo authorization.

I wrote his train up.

no one wants to be monitored as they're doing their job.

Although just because the engineer is in the cab, doesn't mean they're entitled to "privacy" or freedom from being watched. If you're a bus/trolley or light rail operator (P&W), the operator is in plain view. What is the difference from sitting (or standing during peak times) in plain view of a bus operator as opposed to standing next to the cab door on a Silverliner? I've heard conductors cite safety reasons for not looking out the window, which is legit as you can't block the engineer in the cab, but during rush hour when we're packed in there like cattle and people are squished against the door, those concerns seem to go out the window.

Pretty sure it is legal. However, it is certainly within SEPTA's authority to prohibit photography/filming on their property(e.g. from inside the train.)

Technically you do need a photo permit on SEPTA property to do filming

Generally, engineers have the right to admit or not admit persons on their head-end. It is customary to ask the engineer can you ride with them up front, even if your qualifying with a head-end pass. With Silverliners, engineers have to deal with uninvited guests all the time via the parlor door window, and at times it can be a nuisance. Now for the case of what happened to Clearfield, I can understand the actions of the crewmembers, even though they may have seemed to be a bit excessive. Most of the time it is better to communicate with the conductor of the train about your intentions BEFORE taking actions, even with a permit. Generally, most of them will just say 'whatever' and you can go about your business, especially with a permit. I seriously doubt that there will be, or has been, punitive actions taken against the crew because of the incident; the conductor has general charge of the train of which he is assigned. Jfrey states that the person, who Clearfield says was him, was instructed by the conductor TWICE to refrain from his actions and yet he obviously persisted. It's almost like passengers who board the train fully aware that they don't have a ticket, trailpass, or cash money to pay their fare, yet are shocked when the conductor is dismayed by their 'I forgot my pass' story. Talk to the conductor before you board. Generally, they will carry you anyway. Honesty is the best policy. You have to understand that Engineers and Conductors fall under considerable company scrutiny on any railroad, and we never know what peoples' intentions truly are. Conductors are being watched all the time, but they don't get DECERTIFIED, as do locomotive engineers, from anything as a result.

Even with a Head-End pass, unless it is a FRA official, a police officer, supervisor or RRD ops person performing their company duties (with a head end pass in tow), or just observing my operating rules compliance, or any other official RRD employee thereof, I am not obligated to allow entry onto the head-end of a train I am operating. The Head-end pass grants authority to ride the HEAD-END or the HIND-END end of a train. The engineer, or the conductor, could easily say, "qualify from the rear", although I generally welcome the company up front. Please respect an individual crew member, particularly the conductor or engineer, when they ask that you not photo/film anything through the parlor door window into the head end, and don't take anything personal from their request.

Clearfield wrote:

jfrey40535 wrote:Was riding the R3 to West Trenton today when I noticed an older guy casually standing by the front window just enjoying the view. The conductor told him twice to stay away from the door. By the time we stopped at Wayne, the engineer came out and forcefully told the guy to take his seat. He was not interested in being watched at all.

That was me.

I carry written SEPTA photo authorization.

I wrote his train up.

Furthermore, it's part of Bob's job to observe SEPTA operations and report on them. And he does it well.

Matt Mitchell
(CAC member 1987-90)

<i>He was not interested in being watched at all.</i>

Good, he can go work for some freight RR then.

Fact is, he's a public employee, being paid by the taxpayers, moving the public, and directly responsible for the safety of the people on and around the train.

And before everyone jumps on me, yes, I <b>do</b> believe airliners, etc should have clear doors*. What goes on in the cab/cockpit/driver's seat has a direct effect on the well being of those to the rear. Paying passengers.

PATCO got it right - the operator should be right there in the open.

Don't want to be watched? Go work for BNSUPNSCSXCPCN and knock yourself out.

Then again, if they're so paranoid, maybe they shouldn't be driving a train/plane/bus/trolley/thingamajig in the first place...

*In fact, cockpit video recorders may not be too far off in the future - the NTSB wants this and the FAA may mandate it pretty soon, after 9/11 and a few high profile accidents.

You're right Nas; PATCO was fun to ride, sitting in the right-front seat in front of the window! But with things going the way they are, don't be surprised if the next generation of PATCO trains come with full-width cabs, etc. and we'll be outta luck just like on MTA railroads.

We were just lucky the first generation PATCO cars were built like busses. (chuckle!)

Nasadowsk wrote:<i>He was not interested in being watched at all.</i>

Good, he can go work for some freight RR then.

Fact is, he's a public employee, being paid by the taxpayers, moving the public, and directly responsible for the safety of the people on and around the train.

And before everyone jumps on me, yes, I <b>do</b> believe airliners, etc should have clear doors*. What goes on in the cab/cockpit/driver's seat has a direct effect on the well being of those to the rear. Paying passengers.

PATCO got it right - the operator should be right there in the open.

Don't want to be watched? Go work for BNSUPNSCSXCPCN and knock yourself out.

Then again, if they're so paranoid, maybe they shouldn't be driving a train/plane/bus/trolley/thingamajig in the first place...

*In fact, cockpit video recorders may not be too far off in the future - the NTSB wants this and the FAA may mandate it pretty soon, after 9/11 and a few high profile accidents.

If the Feds choose to exercise that option, it is certainly within their powers to do so. I can not argue with that. There is a big difference between the Feds, or the individual carriers, installing cameras on the operating cabs of trains or cockpits, and the riding public recording of an engineer or an airplane pilot in performance of their duties. The engineer or airplane pilot know who is recording them and why, unlike a passenger who may or may not pay taxes. I pay taxes, too; but, I certainly don't have the authority to videotape the operations of an airplane. Those air marshalls would have a field day with me if I tried.
You never know, maybe the engineer wants to pick their nose, clip their nails, and operate their train without some stranger observing and/or videotaping their every motion. As disgusting as the nose picking and nailclipping may be (and I'm only using those as extreme examples to make a point), as long as the engineer is rules compliant (observing MAS speeds, complying with signals, running ontime trains, smooth train handling, etc.)the company and the feds are happy. The primary role of the passenger is to sit down and enjoy the ride from point A to their final destination.

The primary role of the passenger is to sit down and enjoy the ride from point A to their final destination.

I'd have to agree with wahovian on this one. If Clearfield was doing a QC check, he should have identified himself with the conductor, and the problem would have been over. The conductor was professional when he asked him to stand back, the engineer wasn't so kind. I thought it was funny when the conductor went into the cab he intentionally stood in front of the window to "block" the view, but its his train too. Again, a quick ID would have alleviated any hard feelings.

The only problem I have is when the crew insists you sit in your seat and shutup while during rush hour, you stand and bite your tongue because the train is missing a car. Anotherwords, its unsafe to look out the window during normal operating times, but during rush hour, its pack em in there. For that matter, I've had to stand in the vestibules a few times because the train was that full. Isn't that a safety issue?