C&NW F7A 4084C 1st and 2nd

The first C&NW F7A 4084C was destroyed in a head on collision at Rhinelander, Wisconsin on July 4, 1951. The 4084C leading the 4084A struck a passenger train led by the 5003A and 5002A. The 1951 ICC accident report is #3413. A photo of the wrecked F7A 4084C first shows an underframe break behind the cab. There obviously was a 4084C 2nd built sometime in early 1952 by my guess. I haven't found any other record about this rebuild. The lead unit on the passenger train E2A 5003A was also retired because of this wreck.

Ed in Kentucky

It seems (to me) likely that the "new" unit would have incorporated as many usable components of the original as possible. So I suspect (cf. their policy w.r.t. units built as ostensibly re-builds of traded in first generation units a few years later) EMD wouldn't have assigned it a new builder's number. Somewhere, of course, EMD would have kept a record of the work they did... but not, perhaps, in the same place they recorded newly built locomotives?

No other records besides the wreck photo and the ICC accident report have been found.

In the interest of accuracy does anyone have a 1952-1953 photo of the 4084C? A photo post rebuild might confirm details such as the presence of an oval EMD builder's plate or any phase differences between the original and the rebuilt unit.

Ed in Kentucky

The CNW Archives are in the process of being moved to a permanent building (funded by the CNWHS) that is on the grounds of the Illinois Railway Museum.

Between volunteer deaths and moving the archives around from different storage sites around the Chicago suburbs, it's been difficult to get detailed research requests done over the past few years. Once they're moved into the new building, requests like this might be easier to facilitate.

eolesen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:16 pm The CNW Archives are in the process of being moved to a permanent building (funded by the CNWHS) that is on the grounds of the Illinois Railway Museum.

Between volunteer deaths and moving the archives around from different storage sites around the Chicago suburbs, it's been difficult to get detailed research requests done over the past few years. Once they're moved into the new building, requests like this might be easier to facilitate.

I exchanged emails with Don Strack last week on this subject and CNWHS is the best idea to get any additional information. Eolesen I sent you a PM.

Ed in Kentucky

While the underframe break is a major item, back then the unit was quite new. The fact that you can't find any info on a replacement unit being built could suggest the original unit was rebuilt and returned to service.

A new underframe equals a new unit. The fact that nothing can be found on this unit's repair suggests that rail historians never saw the photo of the 4084C with the broken underframe behind the cab. Or didn't understand the true meaning of what happened. There is also the very distinct possibility that the rebuild was done in C&NW's shop and not at EMD. Nonetheless all documented history on this unit post wreck has been recorded wrong. We live in an age of information and to not have accuracy is suspect.

Ed in Kentucky

All the rosters I have show the same frame/EMD build number 8573 for 4084C from 1949, renumbered 415 in 1972, renumbered 400(2) in 1982 and added to the executive train fleet. It was retired in 1985 after the rear frame failed in 1984.

The business fleet roster by Joe Piersen shows it was sold to Kastens and wound up in Spooner on the WGN. It's still there so you might want to contact them and ask what the frame number is.

The other 400(3) wound up as CNW 40 and I'm not quite sure where that ended up.

Have you asked the CNWHS?

SSW921 wrote:A new underframe equals a new unit. The fact that nothing can be found on this unit's repair suggests that rail historians never saw the photo of the 4084C with the broken underframe behind the cab. Or didn't understand the true meaning of what happened. There is also the very distinct possibility that the rebuild was done in C&NW's shop and not at EMD. Nonetheless all documented history on this unit post wreck has been recorded wrong. We live in an age of information and to not have accuracy is suspect.

Ed in Kentucky

So all the information we have is wrong, but we have no idea what is right?

We are 71 years past the actual wreck and there is no correct history of this unit. The unit identity C&NW 4084C 1st was destroyed in a head on collision on July 4, 1951.
This same thread is on the EMD Forum of this site. Eolesen said follow up on this type of question would be easier to facilitate once the C&NW Archives are moved to a new building at the Illinois Railway Museum. See c-amp-nw-f7a-4084c-1st-and-2nd-t174092.html

I'd be happy to send anyone who wants to look in to this the scanned photo and the ICC accident report. Send me a PM with your email.

Ed in Kentucky

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:52 am All the rosters I have show the same frame/EMD build number 8573 for 4084C from 1949, renumbered 415 in 1972, renumbered 400(2) in 1982 and added to the executive train fleet. It was retired in 1985 after the rear frame failed in 1984.

The business fleet roster by Joe Piersen shows it was sold to Kastens and wound up in Spooner on the WGN. It's still there so you might want to contact them and ask what the frame number is.

The other 400(3) wound up as CNW 40 and I'm not quite sure where that ended up.

Have you asked the CNWHS?

Have you seen the photo of the wrecked unit 4084C?

Ed in Kentucky

Message sent to C&NWHS: "Is someone looking in to the true history of this F unit. The first one was destroyed in a head on collision at Rhinelander, WI on July 4, 1951. And no one has been able to find the rebuilder or site. There are several threads about this wreck online. I understand your archives are in the process of being moved, but this subject should be one to look in to.

Ed in Kentucky"

This is something someone from C&NWHS should look in to. They would likely be a lot closer to Union, Illinois. It would make a great article when the true history of 4084C is found.

Ed

I'm inclined to think that between Don Strack and Joe Piersen (both of whom have fairly decent credentials), the history on the locomotive that's out there might be accurate, which leads to a conclusion that the wreck damage was repaired. The heavy repair capability that existed back in the early 1950's shouldn't be underestimated. Railroads went thru five years of having to fix everything when war production took over. Those habits wouldn't have gone away quickly, and the proximity of EMD to the CNW's shops might have also been a factor.

I do recall reading that accounting practices often determined when rebuilds happened vs. a trade-in or repair. If X% of the original parts were able to be reused, then the frame number remained the same even if the frame wasn't in that X% of what was reused. Rebuilding meant the expense could could be depreciated over time vs. a repair being considered an operational expense with no future depreciation possible.

Feel free to post the photo here. It's easy enough to upload via either the web or Tapatalk.

This is what Don Strack wrote me back in March after I sent him the wreck photo and the ICC report: "I suspect that the wrecked 4084C was sent to EMD in 1951 and rebuilt.

C&NW 4084C --> C&NW 415 --> C&NW 400 (2nd)

C&NW 4084C...
https://utahrails.net/cnw/cnw07.php#f7a_4072a

C&NW 415...
http://utahrails.net/cnw/cnw03.php#f7a_412

C&NW 400 (2nd)...
http://utahrails.net/cnw/cnw02.php#f7a_4002

On a different subject, the Wikipedia page for EMD FT locomotives suggests that you have a copy of the EMD Field Service News, dated July 15, 1947, with notes about the differences between the FT and FS locomotives. Can you share this document?

I am working on a new web page about D&RGW's FT and FS locomotives...

https://utahrails.net/drgw/rg-diesel-fs-vs-ft.php

Don Strack"

Ed in Kentucky