• Boston Surface Railroad: Worcester-Providence Commuter Rail

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

Moderators: MEC407, NHN503

  by lakest101
 
v8interceptor wrote:Direct flights between Providence and Worcester??????????? Whoever wrote that must think that the STB is staffed by idiots (is it?). How many city pairs on the planet that are less than 50 miles apart have scheduled commercial airline service (okay, there may be some in very remote areas). That is so ridiculous I can't understand how anyone would include it in the filing...
I read a whole bunch of the other petitions for exemption filed with the STB - they all seem to include stats on alternative services - mostly freight - I think it's a regulatory requirement to identify all optional common carriers in a corridor. Burns and Levinson is a reputable law firm and not cheap I'm sure [tongue in cheek] that they don't file nonsense for the sake of nonsense. It's probably nonsense as required by government regulatory nonsense.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
P&W's track through Providence is separated from the platforms, so if there is to be a stop inside the building the only way physically possible is to have Amtrak install another crossover at the interlocking a half-mile north of the station and square all the co-mingling agreements, insurance, PTC installations, etc. It's either that or BSRY installs its own bare platform on Harris Ave. a half-mile southwest of the station, because installing an independent platform + egress in the tunnel or along the Gaspee St. hillside costs $$$ and would have to be a construction project wholly administered by station owners Amtrak and RIDOT even if BSRY was fronting the money.

BSRY's leak-proof hull hasn't disclosed how they plan to handle this. The degree of public-private participation and construction work required to make Providence Station accessible to the P&W track is pretty onerous...much moreso than getting a platform set up on the Gardner Branch side of Worcester Union. So the fact that there's been nil on the public record about how they plan to interface in Providence is a big missing piece of the puzzle. Personally, I don't see how they're going to be able to do more than a Harris Ave. starter bare platform and "figure the rest out some other year" if they want to get this show on the road. It'd be too much of an over-promise/under-deliver risk to stake their startup to that. Even if negotiations re: PVD go smoothly, the multi-party talks are unlikely to go at all quickly because of who has to get involved.
  by Ridgefielder
 
Just about everything about this project seemed improbable to me from the get-go, yet it appears to be moving forward. BSRY managing to get a crossover reinstalled at Boston Switch at this point wouldn't surprise me.
  by lakest101
 
I'm a cautiously hopeful observer of this but that really *would* surprise me. The legend is that Amtrak asked P&W if they wanted that restored in 1995 for a cost of $250K and P&W refused. In 2008/9 Amtrak quoted Jacob's $4.3M as part of the Woonsocket Commuter Rail Study to restore it. That would make it at something like $6.5-7M now using Amtrak inflation. I'm pretty sure this guys doesn't have that kind of money without asking for a Government handout.

However, there WILL need to be a switch put in south of the Ridot proposed Pawtucket station for which RIDOT has asked for $40M recently from the Fed and I could see BSRC negotiating use of that. Would also explain their delay in filing and releasing plans until about the same time RIDOT applied for the grant.
  by Ridgefielder
 
I'm not trying to start a debate about public vs. private, but-- does it really cost $7mm to install one crossover? Is that what say Union Pacific records as a charge if they have put one in on the Overland Route somewhere in the middle of Nebraska?
  by lakest101
 
Of course it doesn't. I'm not an expert and I think Amtrak uses better than #20's on the NEC but FEC installed a #20 dual turnout in Orlando for $1.3M just last year. That did not include interlocking and of course they don't have ACSES (PTC) to worry about only a Siemens FBS system but call that another $1M and round up the the greatest $M to be safe.

Real life would be <= $3M : Public sector : $7M.

I am willing to bet 90% of BSRC's management time will be fighting the cost of doing business with the quasi-governmentals.
  by CVRA7
 
In the old days a railroad could dump some stone alongside the track, grade and compact it and maybe pave it and voila - you have a platform. Nowadays ADA rules dictate accessible platforms at least for the publicly-operated lines (including Amtrak) but I am relatively certain that this would apply to ANY operation, including private, except for heritage (tourist) rail operations. Therefore many locales that could have supported stations in the past have had that opportunity legislated away from them.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Ridgefielder wrote:I'm not trying to start a debate about public vs. private, but-- does it really cost $7mm to install one crossover? Is that what say Union Pacific records as a charge if they have put one in on the Overland Route somewhere in the middle of Nebraska?
If it's a whole new interlocking...yes, probably does cost $7M. If it's a graft-on to the existing one just south of the commuter rail layover, probably not. However, Pawtucket station's probable siting is a full mile north of the nearest crossover pair, and Pawtucket's going to be a very busy full-schedule MBTA Providence Line stop in addition to being provisioned for an extra third platform track on the P&W/Woonsocket side. Heavy enough traffic levels that they'd need the fluidity of a whole extra interlocking, and to build it from Day 1 to handle all future considerations on the Woonsocket side so Amtrak doesn't have to keep monkeying around with the layout for each incremental commuter service expansion. Wouldn't surprise me if that was indeed the going rate for doing it right the first time.
  by Jeff Smith
 
I've got a question which we may or may not have posed before: if BSRY sees a potential for profit here (or at least, they see an opportunity for a popular service that might eventually warrant a subsidy), why has P&W thought about running it? After all, the aforementioned FEC sees an opportunity for profit on their own tracks for their own account (and the real estate angle doesn't hurt). As I understand it, P&W has been involved in talks regarding New London - Worcester service (not the knowledge corridor, which I think is operated by a Class III). Why wouldn't P&W just go to RI and MA, and say, hey, want to run a commuter service on this stretch?
  by lakest101
 
Jeff Smith wrote:I've got a question which we may or may not have posed before: if BSRY sees a potential for profit here (or at least, they see an opportunity for a popular service that might eventually warrant a subsidy), why has P&W thought about running it? After all, the aforementioned FEC sees an opportunity for profit on their own tracks for their own account (and the real estate angle doesn't hurt). As I understand it, P&W has been involved in talks regarding New London - Worcester service (not the knowledge corridor, which I think is operated by a Class III). Why wouldn't P&W just go to RI and MA, and say, hey, want to run a commuter service on this stretch?
This is a no lose proposition for the P&W - they will get their right of way improved and get paid whether the BSRC sinks or swims - no egg on their face for failure - no public facing grief from customers even if they are at fault for a delay.

If BSRC takes off they win a reliable paying customer- if BSRC is marginal P&W can always offer to take it over and get the economy of scale of single management and owning the crews direct.

I also wonder if there is a regulatory aspect of not running both freight and passengers directly that makes it desirable (like FEC) to have a partner or subsidiary do it.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Jeff Smith wrote:I've got a question which we may or may not have posed before: if BSRY sees a potential for profit here (or at least, they see an opportunity for a popular service that might eventually warrant a subsidy), why has P&W thought about running it? After all, the aforementioned FEC sees an opportunity for profit on their own tracks for their own account (and the real estate angle doesn't hurt). As I understand it, P&W has been involved in talks regarding New London - Worcester service (not the knowledge corridor, which I think is operated by a Class III). Why wouldn't P&W just go to RI and MA, and say, hey, want to run a commuter service on this stretch?
P&W is very, very conservatively-managed. They're a Class II at the small end of the scale somewhat above the official Class III/Class II dividing line, and that's a traditionally tough 'tweener size to try to do business at if you're not part of a larger conglomerate. Most railroads of similar ilk would need to reinvest nearly every dollar they made back into the railroad to keep up with SGR cycles and to shore themselves up for natural fluctuations in on-line business...or, take on temporary debt or poached deferred maintenance money to "go big" and move themselves up to a more advantageous part of the scale. It's almost easier to be intentionally smaller as a Class III 'large' shortline or merge oneself further up the Class II chain than it is to persist at that 'tweener size. P&W not only chooses to stay fully independent at the 'tweener size, but manages its stock price at the 'tweener size and has piled up huge cash reserves at the 'tweener size. All while not skimping on the upkeep on its 'tweener size non-NEC infrastructure.

That's almost unheard of in the industry, but there's no great magic trick that they pulled off to get there. P&W is glacially deliberate on its strategic pivots. Their last territorial intrusion was buying up the Middletown Cluster trackage rights package in CT way back in '92. They've been rumored for almost as long to be sniffing around the Maybrook, so that whole discussion sidebar in the Housatonic thread isn't recent idle speculation: they'll literally wait for the heat death of the universe if that's what it takes for Housy to step aside and for them to get precisely the trackage rights terms they want into Danbury. The ports stuff they're taking advantage of at Quonset and Belle Dock was all 20 years in the making. When they do move faster, it's mainly in lockstep with the Class I's like shadowing CSX's and NS's intermodal chess moves on Worcester County and working over NECR for the Canadian Gateway so they have their flanks well-covered while the 4 Class I's that control all lanes in New England get all merger/buyout/hostile-takeover happy with each other. This is how it's been at corporate for 45 years...way before those NEC Shoreline trackage miles got rebuilt under their feet and states of CT and RI started getting generous with freight grants. They want to retain a Ft. Knox's worth of cash reserves without skimping on their self-maint responsibilities or give up control to outsiders, and want those stabilizers to be the bedrock of its stock price. To achieve that damn near every bathroom break gets methodically sketched out 20 years in advance. It's how they've always been. Barring a major change in the makeup of their controlling shareholders it's how they'll always be. Can't say it hasn't worked out pretty well for them and their stock price over the years.


It's pretty far-fetched given how conservatively managed P&W is that they'd have any interest in taking on passenger services in-house. That's a 'loss leader' side business one does as leverage for trading up to something bigger on the freight side. FEC is gambling on it with All Aboard Florida because they're run by a hedge fund that's swinging for the fences. Class III NECR is baiting self-run Central Corridor service to trade up in the world and because as a cog in the vast G&W empire they've got corporate backing to take an outsized risk relative to the size of their reporting mark. P&W is nothing like either of those cases because their backing money is railroader-only, singular railroad -only, and pathologically allergic to flashy risks like that. I couldn't even see them bidding on an MBTA operator's contract given the checkered fiscal results of the last couple firms that did that. The kind of business that P&W has been baiting aggressively from the T is machine shop outsourcing and locomotive testing/repair; they've shown zero interest in operational functions.

The one appeal that engaging BSRY has for them despite the unknowns is that they aren't taking on any risk of their own if it's vaporware. Whatever grade crossing renewals and track work is required is stuff that was on the self-funded cycled SGR calendar anyways, and just involves moving it up or down on that calendar. If the passenger service ends up vaporware there's no risk to them on the capital side. The rest of the logistics are just hashing out agreements, fees, insurance. I'm sure they've got their risk tolerances already sketched out where if BSRY can competently live within those bounds P&W's happy to do business with them, and if BSRY starts testing those bounds or looking dodgy P&W will matter-of-factly wash hands of them. Arguably the biggest risk they're taking is how smoothly co-existence will be after the schedule is locked-and-loaded for initiation of service. And BSRY has many, many checkpoints to pass with flying colors before it ever gets to carry a train of live passengers on P&W's tracks. If there are cracks in the armor, they'll have fallen apart well before service starts. From P&W's perspective, the real risks mitigate themselves. If I were a BSRY investor I'd be anxious about my stress levels for the next couple years for how much of the risk is riding on their shoulders, but P&W's management is sleeping like a baby.
  by lakest101
 
One other item of note: - regarding why P&W would consider BSRC as a customer at all - they have been turned down twice for TIGER grants to upgrade their bridges to carry Plate F autoracks - they borrowed money themselves to do it on their own last quarter according to their S10.

But...... lines that carry freight AND passenger service get bumped up into the 85th percentile for TIGER awards and into the 95th if it involved "Social Justice" - that's areas of less national median income, higher than median minority residence or higher than national average unemployment - can you say Worcester, Woonsocket and Pawtucket?

Yup - they will sleep like a babies.
  by lakest101
 
From BSRC's forum:

http://www.bsrc.com/forums/topic/equipment/
What equipment do you expect to use?
BSRC’s current operational plans calls for standard passenger rail push pull equipment.

While we are actively seeking used power and coach rolling stock for repair and refurbishment, at this time BSRC has an open option to lease 3 F59PH locomotives for pilot revenue service. As for coach cars BSRC has several options and will be making a final decision by 9/1/16 – basically depending on availability of 12 “like” cars so we can maintain a relatively homogeneous fleet.

BSRC is expressly NOT deploying DMU type equipment.

.nd
  by Ridgefielder
 
You know, the fact that they not only identify a reasonable locomotive type and rolling-stock configuration, but also specifically rule out DMU's, makes me believe them. This is-- amazingly-- starting to sound real.
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