Bar cars: end of an era?

MSC34 wrote:Did a quick search on Google and found this page, which lists the past week's trains having bar cars: http://www.wheresthebarcar.com/

Thanks for locating that. I never saw that link before. It appears that for now, anyway, it's business as usual

Clean Cab wrote:The original topic was are bar cars being phased out? I think the answer has been made clear, yes. There are 9 bar pairs still in service (of the original 20). The two pairs that did not go through CSR will be the first ones retired followed eventually by the other 7. So far there are no concrete plans to create any M8 type of bar cars. Although the M8 contract did have a clause for "up to" 24 bar cars in it.

"Clear?" With all due respects I wouldn't come to that conclusion. Fact is, the 9 pairs still in service are nine of Connecticut's original ten.The other 10 belonged to New York MTA and were converted nearly 30 years ago. Some readers of this forum probably remember the battle royale over that --- a big commuter uprising. FWIW, I was part of it. New York ignored the uprising and did the conversion. Conn. DOT was going to do so; but the governor of CT (Bill O'Neill at the time) wisely listened to the customer and overruled the DOT.

And, by the way, there is indeed an intent to have some ---- I do not know how many, although undoubtedy nothing like 24 since they only have 10 now! --- M8 bar cars. The plan for them was posted on this forum once, and I have it somewhere although I can't lay my hands on it right now . The last we heard, they were going to be done at the end of the project, and the existing M2 bar cars would be te last cars replaced.

Question: The 10 NY-MTA owned bar cars, what car #s were they, and if the numbers were changed when the cars were converted, what are their numbers now?

The 10 MTA owned Bar Cars were numbered 8601-8619. They were renumbered to match the "A" cars (8452-8470) they were paired with. Example bar car 8601 was paired with 8452, which was renumbered 8453.

8603-8455

8605-8457

8607-8459

8609-8461

8611-8463

8613-8465

8615-8467

8617-8469

8619-8471

TCurtin wrote:

Clean Cab wrote:The original topic was are bar cars being phased out? I think the answer has been made clear, yes. There are 9 bar pairs still in service (of the original 20). The two pairs that did not go through CSR will be the first ones retired followed eventually by the other 7. So far there are no concrete plans to create any M8 type of bar cars. Although the M8 contract did have a clause for "up to" 24 bar cars in it.

"Clear?" With all due respects I wouldn't come to that conclusion. Fact is, the 9 pairs still in service are nine of Connecticut's original ten.The other 10 belonged to New York MTA and were converted nearly 30 years ago. Some readers of this forum probably remember the battle royale over that --- a big commuter uprising. FWIW, I was part of it. New York ignored the uprising and did the conversion. Conn. DOT was going to do so; but the governor of CT (Bill O'Neill at the time) wisely listened to the customer and overruled the DOT.

And, by the way, there is indeed an intent to have some ---- I do not know how many, although undoubtedy nothing like 24 since they only have 10 now! --- M8 bar cars. The plan for them was posted on this forum once, and I have it somewhere although I can't lay my hands on it right now . The last we heard, they were going to be done at the end of the project, and the existing M2 bar cars would be te last cars replaced.

Tom,
At this point in time it does appear that bar cars will be phased out and that no new bar cars will be built. I was present at many of the M8 design meetings and the issue of bar cars did come up and a few preliminary designs were drafted and as I said in my previous post there is an option for 24 "bar cars" (nowhere near as spacious at the current ones) in the M8 contract. But there has been no movement on them in several years. When I ask about their status these days, the only answer I get is "maybe". The current plans are to finish building the 380 A&B cars and the 25 non powered cars, then and only then will the issue of whether or whether not to buy/build new bar cars will come up. If I were a betting man, I'd bet against the M8 bar cars ever being built. The priority is getting the most seats out of every car because the M8s have fewer seats than the M2's.

Clean Cab wrote: If I were a betting man, I'd bet against the M8 bar cars ever being built. The priority is getting the most seats out of every car because the M8s have fewer seats than the M2's.

I would take the other side of that bet. I'm not going to say that the the M8 bar cars will definitely be built. I think there's maybe a 60-65% chance they do. The reason is that, quite simply, they are popular with the customers, i.e. the commuters. If MN management doesn't see it this way, I'm pretty certain that there's more than one member of the General Assembly up in Hartford who would remind them. If the State of CT is willing to blow millions of $$ on pointless studies of electrifying the Danbury just to keep Wilton happy, ponying up for a few M8 bar cars to keep Greenwich, Stamford, Darien, Westport, Fairfield & New Canaan quiet doesn't seem that much of a stretch.

Connecticut has problems funding the M-8's as it is, cars ordered for SLE and for Bar cars are already spoken for due to traffic growth.
If you believe that some smuck in general assembly is gone fund more cars at 3 million a pop your sadly mistaken, I stay on clean cab's side of bet.
with 4 cars out of service and potential east Bronx service the last option of 58 cars will probably be exercised but without the bar car conversion.

CDOT already gave up on building specific bar cars by Kawasaki, the bar car option was for New Haven to remove interior between vestibules on A car and to make a mini bar and standing poles, the conversion would be done in house and interior removed would be used as spares.
The designed bar area basically mirrored the toilet area on B car but with no seats around middle section of car, the partitions on Bar car would be LED screens with news and advertisements just like screen near track 30?.

Until a couple years ago Chicago's METRA used to set up portable bars on some rush hour trains, in the middle vestibule area of a regular bilevel coach. Perhaps an alternative for on-board beverage service in the M8 era would be a bar cart that would turn one car into a substitute pub, assuming you could find a few square feet to park it. Not as good for socializing as the neat M2 bar cars, which I've had occasion to patronize a few times over the years, but maybe a little better than brown-bagging from GCT.

Of course the counter-argument is that METRA dropped the portable bars because they concluded they were loosing money on them.

We are getting into realm of "'could have, wood have, should have, might have" lets stick to facts on New Haven bar cars.

DutchRailnut wrote:Connecticut has problems funding the M-8's as it is, cars ordered for SLE and for Bar cars are already spoken for due to traffic growth.
If you believe that some smuck in general assembly is gone fund more cars at 3 million a pop your sadly mistaken

C'mon, Dutch, we're talking the Connecticut General Assembly here-- would you really be surprised by that from the same body that brought us the Busway and the Waterbury electrification study?

Anyway, like I said, I think the odds are slightly in favor of bar service of some kind remaining when the last M2's are retired. But for now, as of August 22, 2013, the bar cars remain alive and well.

Bar service yes, at bar cart in GCT, at a much greater profit.

All the bar cars still in service are 39 years old. That's anywhere from 15 to 20 years beyond what they were built for. Regardless whether they went through CSR or not, it's costing a fortune and a lot of labor to keep them (and all M2's) in service these days. They are technological dinosaurs.

Fair Warning - this topic is drifting into Fantasyland - which could very well see a lock.

I guess all has been said on this topic.

The one thing I know I will not miss about the bar car is the smells from that bathroom. It rivals the M6's bathrooms/smell leakage in putridness.