Anti-freeze

Almost nobody uses antifreeze in EMD's, although I know of a couple industrial plants that do. I vaguely recall something about causing damage to gaskets or seals. Talking 645's, can anybody say exactly what the problems are that would be encountered? The specifics would include a non-heated engine house, 5 locomotives, and layovers of up to a week or so (making running 24-7 costly). Thanks!

I'm not sure if the antifreeze actually does any damage or not, but I think these engines are susceptible to internal cold water leaks, and antifreeze mixed with engine oil is deadly to engine bearings.

From information that I have collected, the H blocks are the only ones designed to allow "anti-freeze" to be used as coolant. Water for everybody else.

Thanks all! Looks like a better solution would be some sort of circulation system, or modification of the shop to allow a smaller space to be heated. If that option is chosen, I'm thinking that maintaining even 45-50 degrees would be acceptable - anyone disagree with that?

At the Winona, MN SOO/CP yard, there's a GP-38 (I believe) that they use as the local switcher. When the temperature drops below a certain point, an automatic starter kicks in, runs the engine for a little while (I'm assuming to keep the vital fluids from freezing) and then shuts down again when the block is nice and warm. One of the Amtrak station crew told me about it, he was out one night checking some things around the depot when it started up with no crew aboard. The CP boys told him about the cold-weather starter the next day.

So, I don't know if that would be an option for you to explore or not (not sure what the cost would be on something like that). I also remember, as a kid, my dad going out to his old Impala and pluging in an extention cord that ran an engine block heater (oil pan heater?), so it would start the next morning (and MN winters can be a tad cold at times). Again, I don't know if said device exists for locomotives, but that would be an option as well.

I would think, however, that if you kept your fleet at 40-50 degrees (the latter the better), they should be fine. As long as the temperature in your shed/roundhouse doesn't drop below freezing.

It's called Smartstart, CP has been installing them like crazy, the main Idea is to conserve fuel, common practice is to just let the engines idle away when not in use, this smartstart keeps track of the battery charge, air pressure, water temp, outside air temp along with a whole bunch of other crap, when the conditions are right it shuts the engine down to save fuel. When it gets cold enough outside it won't shut down. The main reason I could think of for not using antifreeze would be cost, 600 gallons or whatever of antifreeze would be quite expensive, my guess it is cheaper to let them idle then to fill'em with antifreeze.

CSX has developed, and is installing on lots of their locomotives (both EMD and GE, I think), an auxiliary engine-generator set (using a small (automotive?) diesel) to power things like a block heater when the main engine is shut down. If your engine house has electric power, maybe the simplest would be an electric block heater-- "Trains," back in the ??early 1970s?? had a story about an RM "Trainmaster" locomotive that N&W had equipped with an electric block heater because the neighbors complained of the noise of the unit idling overnight in the yard.

Ethylene Glycol anti-freeze has only 90% of the heat transfer characteristics of treated water. Propylene Glycol is about 80%. Either can be used in any EMD engine, but on hot days and at high power rates the cylinder heads can become susceptible to overheating (i.e. they crack). Also the aftercoolers do not cool the charge air as well, so fuel efficiency can drop at high power levels. Any of the engines could run without problems at about 90% rated power on anitfreeze, but EMD will never officially admit it. They have a long history of running with antifreeze in industrial applications, but railroads have such a wide variation of operating conditions that antifreeze just puts them over the edge into failure range.

Looks like we're back to the original question again. One post, since removed, said "From what I have read, antifreeze in the oil will create an acid that will eat certain bearing materials".

Quietguy believes the problem lies in the comparative cooling qualities, not in any inherent chemical damage by coolant getting into the oil (and thereby into the bearings).

The operation does involve some uphill lugging so cooling could be an issue, although if Ethylene Glycol has 90% of the heat transfer it does not sound like they're giving up an awful lot. Maybe the answer would be to use anti-freeze in one unit, and closely monitor the water temp while they make a few trips. If it does not appear to reach the high end of the scale, use it in the rest. This assumes, of course, that it is NOT fatal to get some antifreeze in the oil, just in case.

FWIW, the units in question would be normally aspirated (Roots blowers) not turbos.

Again thanks for the input - it's appreciated!

I have heard of two reasons for the "no anti-freeze" policy on many railroads. One is the aforementioned glycol-in-the-lube-oil problem, that, if undetected, has the potential for causing a lot of damage.

The other, that has not yet been mentioned, is that many railroads use single-viscosity lubricating oil (often 40W), because it apparently has superior qualities in locomotive applications. However, once an engine cools down, this oil becomes much thicker. Then the engine starts harder, and more importantly, upon startup, it takes longer for the oil to flow properly through the engine (and of course, this also has the great potential for damaging the engine). So the use of anti-freeze, without some system to keep the block relatively hot, does not really gain that much.

Try looking into "Kim Hotstarts". Basically they are the forementioned block heater that warms and circulates the water. Also (for a bit more) you can get one that not only warms the water but also wamrs and circulates the oil. I believe they operate off of 220 3 phase, but it has been so may years since I have dealt with them.

Many moons ago I was in charge of the operation of a pair of FM 38D8 1/8 12 cylinder stationary, standby generators; just think of two landlocked Trainmasters with turbos and right-angle drive fans. They had standby lube oil and jacket water heaters and the coolant was treated with Nalco. Management decreed more power be available from these generators so first larger intercoolers were installed then larger radiators and a larger fan. The brain surgeons running this project insisted on changing the coolant to a water/Nalco/glycol cocktail. The new piping for the larger radiators had so many twists and turns it was near impossible to vent the system during refilling. New vent lines were installed to remedy this but the tops of the radiators started to resemble spaghetti. In the end, due to glycol having a lower heat transfer coefficient than water, the generators' output was the same as before the modification. To add insult to injury, microbes began to grow in the jacket water system. As they died off their remains found their way into the seals of the standby circulator pumps causing leaks. We added biocide to the jacket water cocktail but to no avail. About once a week a diesel had to be removed from service and drained to replace the pump’s seal. My advice: if the system isn't designed for antifreeze don't go there.

EMD Maintenance Instruction 1748 states that the use of ethylene glycol antifreeze meeting ASTM D-4985 may be used in their locomotives in concentrations between 33% and 68%.

As for the CSX APU's (auxilliary Power Units), the staring and stopping of the engines has caused a massive expense to CSX in EMD starting motors.

Faced with the problem of protecting 16-567C, 251C and Cooper-Bessemer engines without an enginehouse in South Dakota, I use a trick taught to me by an old shop foreman, a 50/50 blend of methanol and water. As I understand it, methanol was commonly used as anti-freeze before ethylene glycol was developed. It will boil off at relatively low temperatures but my experience has been it will condense in the radiators during winter operation. Current gasket material seems to be unaffected by alcohol. As the locomotives were shut down in the winter, protection was a must. Starting a chilled (-20 F) 567 takes some prior planning. We would pitch a stock tank heater coil into the crankcase 40W lube oil (available at farm supply stores) overnight and put a Nipco (propane fired heater) in the long hood with the heat directed toward the oil cooler. The following morning the engine would start without undue stress. We have done this since 1985.

Alex Huff

The San Diego Railroad Museum has to used Ethylene Glycol antifreeze
is the 567B of a 244 of ALCO with no problem for a 25 year.
The low temp was about 19 F.

Smile


Stan