Amtrak Downeaster Discussion Thread

[charlesriverbranch]

Well, in addition to accommodating the train overnight, they'd also need to put the crew up at a Boston hotel.

[ryanch]

They sometimes run extras down from Maine and over to Southampton. Is there a cogent reason they couldn't do that with the euipment for an early morning departure?

Can you explain this idea in more detail? Are you proposing a daily red-eye one-way equipment run with no passengers, straight from Maine to Southampton and then halfway back in the morning, all to have a train-set in place for a morning run from Boston to Maine? Or a revenue run to Southampton via Boston, timed mostly for Boston-Maine, but justified and paid in part by passengers on all portions of the routing?

[Rockingham Racer]

I don't know the exact details, but in the past, they occasionally ran a deadhead to Southampton in the early evening. And sometimes they put deadhead equipment on the last train of the evening to Boston. Both situations involved running the equipment via the Grand Juntion after arriving at North Station. The major obstacle I see to having this operation as a sixth trip would be the charge that Amtrak would impose. Perhaps George O'Keefe could enlight us.

[gokeefe]

This issue has indeed come up repeatedly. Cost is one problem and another is operational. All of the alternatives mentioned (along with some others) have been considered. Put simply "it just doesn't work". There are many layers of issues beyond cost as well. Yes, it should be simple but unfortunately it is not.

[mtuandrew]

Well, in addition to accommodating the train overnight, they'd also need to put the crew up at a Boston hotel.

There aren’t crew quarters at South Station anymore? It’s a quick cab or T ride away.

[njtmnrrbuff]

That is true about a "red eye" run from BRU-BON. I have a feeling that when Downeaster Trainsets need servicing in Boston, they go to Southampton Yard. What happens with the DOT budget in Maine is probably irrelevant to MassDot. Looking at the present schedule, on weekdays, the first train numbered 680 departs Brunswick at 4:30 am and arrives into Boston North Station at 7:50. That is a very early departure time from Brunswick and it departs Portland at 5:18 which is still very early. However, if you are attending a business conference in Boston between 9:00 and 4:00, then the 680 is the train that you would want. 680 turns for 681 on weekdays departing Boston at 9:05 and arriving into Portland at 11:40 and Brunswick at 12:25. If you want to spend the entire afternoon in Downtown Portland, then 680 is your train. If you are attending a business meeting lasting the whole day, then you would probably want to take Concord Trailways Bus. On Saturdays and Sundays, 690 runs almost an hour later than 680 on weekdays. 690 turns for 691 on Saturdays and Sundays. I'm not sure how many people who live in Brunswick Maine would want to board a train at 3:30 in the morning and that would probably go with many of the communities served by the Downeaster. The Downeaster isn't the Northeast Corridor. I'm sure that in order for the first northbound to depart BON around 8:00, that would mean having a spare trainset or two in either Southampton Yard or at BET.

Remember that when Amtrak doesn't just have to play around with whichever freight company owns the tracks in New Hamphire and Maine. Amtrak must also travel on MBTA tracks. There are many stretches of the Downeaster route that runs on MBTA rails that are single track-the Wildcat as well as stretches of the Haverhill Line through Andover.

[Arborwayfan]

If there were an early morning northbound and a late night southbound, wouldn't it be possible to have one or two crews based in Boston instead of in Portland, such that everyone finished up at home at the end of their shift? Can Amtrak arbitrarily change where jobs are based or must that be negotiated with the union?

I understand there are many other obstacles. I'm just curious why the assumption of needing to put a crew up in Boston overnight.

[BandA]

I would think since Amtrak already has crew in Boston to support Acela & NE Regional & Late-for-sure Limited, having a Boston crew for a Downeaster should be easy, just report to North Station instead of South Station to start/end the shift, or send them in a cab or subway just like all the passengers that transfer.

As for servicing, can't they work out something with MBTA/Keolis? They have cleaning, mechanical, and fueling folks at Boston Engine Terminal.

If the problem is the mechanics / cleaning unions, either tell them to get over it or have Amtrak do similar amount of work on some of the MBTA equipment that is laying over on the southside. Would they face higher labor rates for Boston based crew/service than Maine based?

[gokeefe]

No it is not easy. The Downeaster crews are a separate zone from the rest of the NEC.

The cost of servicing in Boston is a major part of the problem along with a potential jurisdictional fight between labor. It's one thing for NNEPRA to contract services in Maine. Boston is another matter entirely.

It is very easy to oversimplify the problem. It is highly complex and involves difficult multi-state politics that NNEPRA wisely chooses to avoid.

[gokeefe]

If there were an early morning northbound and a late night southbound, wouldn't it be possible to have one or two crews based in Boston instead of in Portland, such that everyone finished up at home at the end of their shift? Can Amtrak arbitrarily change where jobs are based or must that be negotiated with the union?

I understand there are many other obstacles. I'm just curious why the assumption of needing to put a crew up in Boston overnight.

Short answer is "no" they can't arbitrarily change crew basing. As noted in my immediate previous post the crew zone for the Downeaster is separate from the rest of the NEC. I would caution that my own understanding may not be up to date.

The most realistic proposal is probably a dead of night (3:30a) departure from Brunswick turning for an early train from Boston. It could capture some very significant commuter traffic in New Hampshire that might make the train more financially viable than expected.

Departure times from DOV-DHM-EXR would be something like 5:17a-5:25a-5:39a .... HHL would be 6:00a ... BON @ 6:50a. Those are very good hours for commuters. Mid day northbound could see an uptick from half day commuters heading home.

[MEC407]

I think you'd probably get some decent numbers boarding at WEM, too (4:59am). My dad hopped on the Turnpike at 5am to head into Boston from Wells back in the '70s, and there are a lot more Boston commuters living in Wells today than there were 40+ years ago.

Come to think of it, maybe NNEPRA should build a mini-layover in Wells. Nothing fancy, just a simple setup like they have at POR. There's plenty of space for it, and no residential abutters.

[Arborwayfan]

Thanks, gokeefe! Interesting. Just to see if I understand this right, the Downeaster is in a separate zone from the NEC, which means that it has a different pool of engineers and conductors who work only on the Downeaster? And engineers and conductors in that zone must start work at the Maine end of the line? That is, there couldn't be jobs in the Downeaster zone that required/allowed crews to start in Boston, even if those crews were part of that separate Downeaster pool of engineers and conductors? Or perhaps such jobs could theoretically exist but Amtrak can't make current Maine-based crews up stakes and move to Boston (which would be a big and expensive change for the employees, for sure)?

There are so many jurisdictions, parties to negotiations, and physical constraints along this one route that I can totally believe that things that seem like logical arrangements, and that might be easy if it was all in one state that also owned the railroad, are next to impossible. I do often wonder why "we want to add another round trip, with the extra jobs that will require, but you need to let us make this this change to the work rules that won't make anyone's job harder or reduce anyone's hours or wages," isn't an easy sell. I believe you when you say that it this case it isn't, but it often puzzles me why it isn't, in this case another cases. And I am about as pro-union as they come, in general.

[gokeefe]

Thanks, gokeefe! Interesting. Just to see if I understand this right, the Downeaster is in a separate zone from the NEC, which means that it has a different pool of engineers and conductors who work only on the Downeaster?

Correct.

And engineers and conductors in that zone must start work at the Maine end of the line? That is, there couldn't be jobs in the Downeaster zone that required/allowed crews to start in Boston, even if those crews were part of that separate Downeaster pool of engineers and conductors? Or perhaps such jobs could theoretically exist but Amtrak can't make current Maine-based crews up stakes and move to Boston (which would be a big and expensive change for the employees, for sure)?

Not quite. The issue, as best I understand it, is that a scheduled crew start in Boston has to come from the NEC zone. Could be totally wrong on this but that's my understanding.

There are so many jurisdictions, parties to negotiations, and physical constraints along this one route that I can totally believe that things that seem like logical arrangements, and that might be easy if it was all in one state that also owned the railroad, are next to impossible. I do often wonder why "we want to add another round trip, with the extra jobs that will require, but you need to let us make this this change to the work rules that won't make anyone's job harder or reduce anyone's hours or wages," isn't an easy sell. I believe you when you say that it this case it isn't, but it often puzzles me why it isn't, in this case another cases. And I am about as pro-union as they come, in general.

The physical disconnect between North and South station is primarily responsible for a lot of the problem here. The labor issues are secondary to that.

[Arborwayfan]

Thanks!

[Jeff Smith]

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/in ... owneaster/

The Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority (NNEPRA) announced today that the Amtrak Downeaster achieved record-breaking ridership of 574,404 passengers in 2019, a 7.8% yearly increase. The previous ridership record of 546,056 passengers was set in 2017.

The Amtrak Downeaster experienced record ridership growth in 9 of 12 months, according to NNEPRA Marketing Director Natalie Bogart, who added that August 2019 was not only the highest ridership month in Downeaster history (60,944 passengers), but also the first time Downeaster ridership surpassed 60,000 passengers in a month.

NNEPRA attributes the ridership surge to increased frequency to Freeport and Brunswick, improved reliability, as well as repeat riders.

“Amtrak’s Customer Satisfaction score of 91% suggests that people are not only riding the Downeaster, but are finding it to be enjoyable as well,” Amtrak noted in a press release. “When compared to Amtrak services throughout the country, passengers rank the Downeaster among the top services for friendliness, overall satisfaction and quality of on-board food service.”
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