Amtrak Atlanta to Dallas Via Meridian Speedway

Given that this proposal is coming from the Southern Rail Commission which has Louisiana, Mississippi, as its members I doubt very much that you will see any route move forward that cuts out their own members.

gokeefe wrote:Given that this proposal is coming from the Southern Rail Commission which has Louisiana, Mississippi, as its members I doubt very much that you will see any route move forward that cuts out their own members.

There is that consideration, but my reply to that would be 1) the Southern Rail Commission seems to have its plate full with restoring service on the Gulf Coast, and 2) the Southern Rail Commission may dictate where the trains go when they are the ones paying for the trains. That goes equally as much for myself, of course...

They are clearly prepared to pay for station improvements and operation of necessary facilities.

Electron think we will find that Crescent could switch on and off more than 4 cars. We are trying here to get a new station in ATL but until getting the station having cut out cars is impossible ? Observing the ATL north demand who knows what passenger traffic could be ? Day trains north of ATL great potential. The TSA problems at ATL airport could take many passengers to Greenville / Spartanburg , Charlotte, Raleigh and of course the intermediate stations.
Although not a NEC population base certainly more than northern California base. And look at those loads.

I'm not arguing against making Atlanta a southern hub for Amtrak, I'm arguing it's a waste of effort to cut cars on and off in Atlanta. Check the Crescent's schedule more closely.

Southbound trains arrive in Atlanta at 8:13 am, the returning northbound trains arrive at 7:35 pm the following evening. At best cutting cars on and off saves just a few cars, possibly one sleeper and two coaches, of an extended trip all the way to New Orleans. It's not going to add more cars to the train between Atlanta and New York City. It's only going to save just these few cars from the inventory of rolling stock Amtrak assigns to the Crescent. Certainly not enough cars to form a new train. I don't believe it is worth the extra expense to keep a switching locomotive in Atlanta, security personnel to watch the cars in Atlanta, cleaning personnel to clean the cars in Atlanta, or any other additional staffing Amtrak will need in Atlanta to support the cutting on and off these cars, over all seven days of a week.

Let's take a closer look where Amtrak cuts on and off locomotives and cars elsewhere. Spokane, where the cars continue on to their final destinations and aren't serviced, Albany where the cars continue on to their final destinations and aren't serviced, locomotives that turn around that very same day and aren't services, St. Louis where the cut cars turns around and is serviced but it also services other trains, and San Antonio where the cars continue on to their final destination and aren't serviced, but where one train turns around and is serviced.

Presently Amtrak doesn't service any trains in Atlanta at all over and beyond any other through service city. Additional personnel will be needed to service cut cars, and I just don't believe there will be enough work to keep the staff busy. Now, if in the future, Amtrak added train services from Atlanta to Savanah or other city, then they would have to add staff to service that train and that staff could be used to cut cars on and off the Crescent and service them. That's the only way I see to make this workable for both maintenance and monetary perspective.

OK, cutting off cars in ATL is out. How about a split/merge like the LSL, EB, or TE/SL so the trains don't have to be stored/serviced in ATL?

The first option that has been discussed here is ATL-Dallas/Ft. Worth via Meridian. I like it but the schedules don't match up well with the Crescent schedule (the train would arrive in Dallas around the graveyard shift).

A second thought I had was ATL to Florida. No one from the NEC would use the Crescent Florida branch to get to Florida but Atlanta along with Charlotte, Greensboro, and Charlottesville will have a direct train to Florida (even though Charlotte/Greensboro would be stuck in the graveyard shift). I am assuming you'd have to find a route from ATL to Savannah and then take the Silver Meteor route down to Florida. Maybe this train could terminate in Tampa or Orlando instead of Miami if it would arrive/leave in Miami in the graveyard shift. Maybe ATL-Florida will be more popular one day than ATL-NOL.

Finally, how about extend one Piedmont train in each direction to/from ATL? Assuming 5.5 hrs from Charlotte to Atlanta, we can cut cars off the 19 and send them up to North Carolina (76), leaving ATL around 11:45am to arrive in CLT at 5:15pm and continue to Raleigh. Then the southbound 73 can continue down to ATL and arrive around 3:30pm and the cars can be added to the 20 going north. I think service from North Carolina cities to Atlanta other than the Crescent is something the state could have an interest in supporting financially. They are paying for a train from North Carolina to the NEC. I don't know if South Carolina/Georgia have any interest in contributing (here is a link for Charlotte-Atlanta: http://www.dot.ga.gov/IS/Rail/AtlantatoCharlotte" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

It's clear to me Atlanta should have more service than just the Crescent.

If Atlanta is underserved, what about Houston, Phoenix, and Cincinnati which see thrice weekly services, or Nashville, Lousiville, Montgomery, Mobile, Knoxville, Chattanooga, and Tallahassee that see no one Amtrak services at all?

All the Piedmont rolling stock is owned by North Carolina, not Amtrak. I do not see North Carolina permitting their equipment leaving the state - ever! Amtrak rolling stock is used by the Carolinan, that's the train that could be extended to Atlanta if South Carolina and Georgia ever contributes to is subsidies.
Of course, train turn around facitilities will be needed in Atlanta to make this work

electricron wrote: If Atlanta is underserved, what about Houston, Phoenix, and Cincinnati which see thrice weekly services, or Nashville, Louisville, Montgomery, Mobile, Knoxville, Chattanooga, and Tallahassee that see no one Amtrak services at all?

Never said they weren't underserved. No doubt these cities should get more service or service at all. This post is about the Crescent so I was just keeping up with the topic.

A second thought I had was ATL to Florida. No one from the NEC would use the Crescent Florida branch to get to Florida but Atlanta along with Charlotte, Greensboro, and Charlottesville will have a direct train to Florida (even though Charlotte/Greensboro would be stuck in the graveyard shift).

As a lifelong resident of NC and GA I really don't see much demand for travel between NC / Atlanta and Florida. The pull of beaches and warm weather just isn't as strong for folks in the Sunbelt -- we have our own beaches (which are cheaper) and no snow to escape from. In addition Disney (and most of N Florida) is a relatively low stress drive from Atlanta. Finally, there are surprisingly few economic linkages between the South and Florida. This is not to say that no one would ride an Atlanta-S. Florida train, but it certainly won't be anywhere close to NEC levels of traffic demand after controlling for population.

electricron wrote:All the Piedmont rolling stock is owned by North Carolina, not Amtrak. I do not see North Carolina permitting their equipment leaving the state - ever!

I dunno, I suspect that NCDOT would be happy to send their gear to Columbia, Atlanta and Richmond if they thought it would make their core service more robust (assuming appropriate cost-sharing agreements are in place). Despite NC's recent political devolution the folks in the NCDOT rail division are thoughtful about providing connectivity for the future and they would see positive economic impacts from expanding service to nearby metros. The S-Line reconstruction supports the notion that NCDOT rail looks beyond the state line for opportunities -- it appears that NC will pay the lions share of the necessary improvements from the state line to Petersburg.

Bob Roberts wrote:

electricron wrote:All the Piedmont rolling stock is owned by North Carolina, not Amtrak. I do not see North Carolina permitting their equipment leaving the state - ever!

I dunno, I suspect that NCDOT would be happy to send their gear to Columbia, Atlanta and Richmond if they thought it would make their core service more robust (assuming appropriate cost-sharing agreements are in place). Despite NC's recent political devolution the folks in the NCDOT rail division are thoughtful about providing connectivity for the future and they would see positive economic impacts from expanding service to nearby metros. The S-Line reconstruction supports the notion that NCDOT rail looks beyond the state line for opportunities -- it appears that NC will pay the lions share of the necessary improvements from the state line to Petersburg.

I agree with Bob Roberts here: NCDOT likes how much less expensive their rolling stock is than Amfleets and would be happy to run it on any/all service that NC sponsors if they could (IIRC it is Amtrak that wants NEC service to run on Amfleets, not NCDOT). So if there were service that NC sponsored partly along the Crescent route, say Raleigh-Atlanta, I don't see why NCDOT wouldn't be happy to scrounge up a fleet for it and have it share facilities at Raleigh or Charlotte.

Please remember that Georgia like many other southern states has no interest in funding or helping passenger trains so getting any help from the state is very unlikely. Having said that, no state help means no station changes in Atlanta and no station changes in Atlanta means no improvements to the present passenger service in and through Atlanta period.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:Please remember that Georgia like many other southern states has no interest in funding or helping passenger trains so getting any help from the state is very unlikely. Having said that, no state help means no station changes in Atlanta and no station changes in Atlanta means no improvements to the present passenger service in and through Atlanta period.
Noel Weaver

Please refer to my link above from the GEORGIA DOT.

When it comes to Amtrak growth, you really are pessimistic.

Mr. Philly Fan, first let me note that Mr. Weaver has a 1956 service date with (what once was) a Class I road.

Now if you want to address the one who is pessimistic around here, address me.

Every state has a transportation department; and every such department has a cadre of dreamers that produce material such as you have referenced. I'll bet even South Dakota, which hasn't seen a passenger train since well before A-Day, has a passenger rail planning department.

Despite, if you ask me, Atlanta has the world's worst and discourteous drivers, it is a very "car centric" region. Of course there is rail mass transit (which I use when I go down - and not for just joyrides), but it has a way of "not going where the people want to go".

That the Atlanta metropolitan area comprises four counties, hardly helps the cause for unifying mass transit, one county, Cobb, has completely opted out of MARTA rail. That is an area of growing affluence and soon will have the stadium for the Braves (MLB). The present Downtown venue has MARTA, but the Cobb County location will not.

Second only to a commute to work, I can't think of better use for mass transit then attending a sports event. You know, parking, DRINKING, no luggage.

Now, Braves fans will be deprived of rail mass transit to the games.

And in the environment I have outlined here, how can additional intercity rail service seriously be on the table?

(disclaimer: author goes down annually, fly or drive, to visit with long standing friends residing in the region)

Viewers of these posts do not realize how serious / dyer the Atlanta situation is. So bad that IMHO Amtrak will never consider more service until fixed even it has to wait 30 years..

This poster really wants to see more ATL service including the cut off cars. By cutting off 2 coaches and one sleeper not needed south of ATL that could add another sleeper and two coaches north of ATL.

That said There is absolutely no way NS will allow any change of operation at the ATL station. First each Crescent blocks the NS ATL - CLT double track main for one to 1.5 hours each way. Breaking up a train or cut off cars would increase the delay. But that time can be subject to increasing delays for north bound trains. There is a CP grade ( Howell ) crossing where 3 main lines of CSX intersect ( 2 double track ) intersect 3 main lines of NS ( 2 double ). CSX was there first *( W&A RR civil war ) and fouls with their yard leads or hump trains and the longer CSX trains will make it worse.

So Crescent trains that often leave Anniston, Al on time are delayed at Howell and that ties up the station longer with NS freights holding out so not to foul the station. Personally have seen waits for 45 minutes and friend took almost 2 hours to clear Howell. Just look at Crescent 20's figures. Since NS routes take most of delays and CSX there first CSX is not interested in paying for their tracks to tunnel under NS ( best option ) .

As well This CP impediment will prevent any commuter trains to downtown ATL until fixed.

Now a new station NE of ATL in Chamblee will still allow Cut off cars and more service to the northeast. Split trains south or trains Florida <> Midwest would not work until Howell fixed.

electricron wrote:If Atlanta is underserved, what about Houston, Phoenix, and Cincinnati which see thrice weekly services, or Nashville, Lousiville, Montgomery, Mobile, Knoxville, Chattanooga, and Tallahassee that see no one Amtrak services at all?

What about them? Atlanta Metro, at 5.4m is bigger than the combined population of Nashville, Lousiville, Montgomery, Mobile, Knoxville, Chattanooga, and Tallahassee--cram them all together and these 7 cities are still only 5.1m.

and Houston-Dallas actually (and rightly) has the Texas Central HSR project actively picking out ROW and lining up funding. Phoenix needs more service, it is true, but doesn't mean that Atlanta isn't underserved.

Pop (2010 metro) US Census
5.7m Houston (Texas Central HSR is under active development)
5.4m Atlanta
4.3m Phoenix
2.1m Cincinnati
1.5m Nashville
1.2m Louisville
0.4m Montgomery
0.4m Mobile
0.7m Knoxville
0.5m Chattanooga
0.4m Tallahassee


Further, Atlanta (or Charlotte) is the capital city for the Piedmont Atlantic megaregion of 17m people (growing to 25m by 2025 and 35m by 2050).

What also underscores how underserved ATL is is that the rail service is there,but serving Charlotte and the Carolinas in the dead of night.

Or, if you're North Carolina, you notice that
1) Charlotte is the natural central market point for the whole region
2) Half the region is in North Carolina

Phoenix? Well, it is 80% the size of Atlanta, but its "megaregion" (theArizona Sun Corridor) ends up being just 1/3 the size of the Piedmont. They are developing rail with the FRA's help, but the Piedmont Atlantic is THREE times the size.

GDOT 's process is mostly funded by FRA, and they don't have much skin in the game. But just because Georgia hasn't realized how ready ATL-CLT is for rail, doesn't mean that it isn't just about the readiest corridor out there. It falls just below the usual suspects (California, Texas, Florida, Illinois, Michigan, VA-NC).