Amtrak and its NYC station

Somewhere there's a strategy that will deal with the issues here and get Amtrak into a repectable home in NY. The basement of MSG, as Amtrak's terminal in "the greatest city in the world," is quite simply, utterly abysmal. Think about this, folks. Then think about nearly every other urban Amtrak station on the NEC (even places like New Haven or Stamford, CT where Amtrak is simply a tenant) --- they are far, far nicer than the digs in NY! The current Penn Station is an embarassment, and I don't believe anything --- period --- can be done to it to make it materially better.

So, what to do? I understand that the current strategy for moving across 8th Avenue would be financially disadvantageous to Amtrak --- they own the current Penn Station, and in addition collect a lot of rent from a variety of tenants. But it seems to me things could be proposed to ameliorate these issues.

There are some "presumablies" in the discussion that follows: Presumably, Amtrak will continue to own the current station which presumably will remain in use by LIRR and NJT, and the current collection of vendors -- most, anyway --- will remain to serve passengers on those other carriers. I say "presumably" because it would seem highly disadvantageous for those commuter carriers too to move across 8th Ave.: a long block further from midtown offices, a hike from the 7th Ave. IRT (OK, I'm showing my age by referring to the subway by that name !), etc.

Amtrak will presumably not be using very much "net New" space in the "Farley" building. Think about it. The tracks and platforms are the same ones as there now!!! Nothing new. Amtrak needs ticketing, checking, and waiting space, and a new set of escalators & elevators to access the platforms it uses.

It seems to me to be worth it, and appropriate, for the city to grant Amtrak use of that amount of space, not free, but for some token rent that "makes it legal." That very nearly makes Amtrak "whole" on the deal. What's in it for the city? Well, the hordes of Amtrak passengers arriving and departing from the new station do so at a facility worthy of "the greatest city in the world" rather than from an abysmal hole in the ground.

All that passionate, emotion-laden language prompts this caveat:

To be a fan is to be passionate--but most people who use that station are not fans--they don't speak that language. Words like "abysmal" and "embarrassment" will not move them--let alone the people who don't even use that station regularly but who would be paying for it anyway. If the idea is to move the idea forward, rather than hear oneself feel, let's have fewer feelings and more facts: traffic through the station, congestion on the platforms at peak periods, etc. Utility first.

For once, I actually agree with Mr Fels. People who actually use the station - and remember, the vast majority are LIRR and NJT riders - really don't care about Farley. They want their train to be on time, the trash picked up, and the escalators working.

Most people spend as little time as they can in Penn - nobody visits NYC to see a train station anyway - and let's face it, even the existing Amtrak section is bettter than it was 5 years ago. It's not like an airport where you're stuck there while you're waiting - you're in midtown Manhattan. Plenty to see outside the station.

Realistically, most commuters would want another tunnel to NJ, and better platforms. A number of the high track platforms (17 in particular) are curvy with large gaps between the train and platform, and a few are narrow. These things mean more at 5:15 when you've got 3 minutes to get everyone onto the Babylon train, than a waiting room that mimics one that was demolished 40 years ago...

I would agree with Mr. Curtin on the grounds of architectural asthetics. Even Grand Central Terminal is a far greater and more pleasing monument to national rail travel.
On the flip side of the coin, I have used NJT to get to LIRR, Amtrak, NYC subway and have found this aspect of connectibility of all lines quite convenient. Even a few weeks ago, I jumped on the Amtrak Metroliner after getting off a NJT train. Who needs a car?

Again, I agree with the dismal styling but then again, nothing could be worse than Port Authority Bus terminal, that place makes me cringe.
Even in Jolly Old London, UK, I found stations like Charing Cross and Waterloo to be not so nice, at least inside anyway. Paddington station looks like a more upscale version of Hoboken.

I still feel the ultimate expression of travel is the old TWA terminal at JFK airport to be my biggest inspiration no matter how useless the building is these days.

Then again, Baltimore Penn station always reminded me of Cab Calloway and his orchestra returning home to Baltimore from a gig from somewhere. Hi-dee-hi-dee-ho!

If the Farley station plan goes through, how much of the Farley bulilding will Amtrak use? Where will the US Postal Service relocate to (the Farley is its main New York facility)?

Technically, Amtrak will "use" none of the facility since no tracks or platforms go into it. They will be using the same old tracks and platforms as before.

As for where the USPS is going, that would be somewhere downtown. The Farley building is by no means their main facility in Manhattan, otherwise they never would have sold the building out to NY.

Irish Chieftain wrote:Technically, Amtrak will "use" none of the facility since no tracks or platforms go into it. They will be using the same old tracks and platforms as before.

As for where the USPS is going, that would be somewhere downtown. The Farley building is by no means their main facility in Manhattan, otherwise they never would have sold the building out to NY.

The USPS(whoever is in the farley building) is going over to Morgan.. a few blocks away.

Does that mean Amtrak is only using the Farley building for ticketing, baggage, waiting areas, etc.?

Tom Curtin wrote:Somewhere there's a strategy that will deal with the issues here and get Amtrak into a repectable home in NY.

The strategy is simple. Tear down Madison Square Garden and those hideous adjoining office towers and replace the original NYP. It's a long shot, but not all that far-fetched.

Reason being that the current owner of MSG, Cablevision Systems Corp., a cable TV company owned primarily by Chuck Dolan, wants to build a new facility, hopefully with some aid from the city. That is why MSG is the leading OPPONENT of a proposal to build a new football stadium for the Jets over the Long Island RR's West Side Yard.

To placate Dolan, the city could help him build a new Garden, possibly using air rights behind the Farley Post Office at 9th Ave. That would pave the way for tearing down the current Garden. Then, the money that was earmarked for a new station in the Farley Building could be used to put up a new Penn Station on the original site.

If it happens, Satan will need to buy lots of sweaters. But don't rule it out just yet. The current location, between 7th and 8th Ave. is superior to Farley because of its proximity to key transportation lines - 7th Ave., 6th Ave and Broadway subway lines.

I still think the present Penn Station is adequate, not a palace but adequate. Most of the passengers use it for what it is, a train station and
not a home or a place to "hang out". Could it be better, of course but
using the old post office is not the answer.
Maybe an answer would be to get rid of Madison Square Garden and move
it to a different location. At lease, station operations would not so likely be
subject to disruption for a political convention or other affair.
I admit, it is not my favorite place but it is a decent facility to wait for a
train or to transfer from one train to another and that is what it is there
for.
The Farley Building will not be an convenient for many of Amtrak's
passengers and will not be as easy to use for anybody, just a lot more
walking or distance for everybody.
Noel Weaver

As a railfan and Amtrak patron, I at first welcomed the thought of a new, more spacious station building in the Farley building. Visions of Washington Union Station danced through my head.
BUT...as a daily commuter to and from NYP (on NJ Transit) I wouldn't be happy having to walk that extra block twice a day. If they still have the same exits from the platform as they do now and just add some exits on the west end, it might be OK, but I don't know what the plans are. Also, NJT might not move, since it just completed its own concourse area near the 7th Ave end. Also, I believe the platforms get narrower on the west end. If that's true it could cause a problem. I doubt if the track configuration can be changed much.

I expect that most people here would agree with me: tear down the Garden and put something nice there. However, that's not going to happen.

A good train station is like a good church singles group: Everyone there is a short-timer, at least by intent. Certainly you want the time you spend there to be pleasant, but what you want most is to transit as quickly as possible.

mattfels wrote:A good train station is like a good church singles group: Everyone there is a short-timer, at least by intent. Certainly you want the time you spend there to be pleasant, but what you want most is to transit as quickly as possible.

I agree - Of course, with the church singles group, you ideally don't want them coming back for seconds

One of the things that I think is troubling about the new proposal is that to go from the old penn to the new Farley, you have to walk outside along New York blocks that seem to have very little pedestrian appeal. The Farley post office, while certainly a handsome structure, seems to suffer from the same problem as the original Pennsylvania Station: There's nothing on street level for pedestrians. That's boring, and a real drag when raining or snowing. It's also creepy after dark.

How many people transfer between the other rail lines and Amtrak is an open question, as is the number of people who take the subway down to Penn to get on an Amtrak train.

Of course, if the plans call for an underground concourse linking the two spaces (complete with the requisite shopping or food court, as well as moving sidewalks ala the airport) this problem would be addressed. Cab riders or those being dropped off could proceed directly to Farley, Subway passengers and those transfering from the subway, LIRR or NJT would move internally.