Amfleet II - Rotating Coach seats?

Hello,

the downside of traveling this past Easter weekend was that the LSL was sold out in both directions (you might recall that I take the 48 from CHI to BUF each Friday, and the 49 back each Sunday). The upshot of a train that's sold out during spring break season is that I was fortunate enough, in both directions, to sit with a lovely young lady, both of whom actually seemed interested in talking to me - I assure you, it surprised me too. Keep in mind, those cars are dark at night, so I can only assume that they couldn't see me (I've been known to frighten cattle) and thus were not adverse to speaking to me.

In any event - on the 48 out of CHI, I was seated with the lovely Miss Elizabeth, who told me a story about how she and some girlfriends of hers once got into trouble for turning a set of coach chairs around so that they could all face each other. Apparently, they somehow managed to get the chairs stuck or something.

"Um.. on what train did this happen?" I asked.

She stated it was an Amtrak, in a car just like this one. I sort of scratched my head a bit, then told her that I don't think these particular chairs could do that. She thought that they all must, because that's how they keep everyone facing forward in their seats once the train goes the other direction - they just turn them all around. I explained that if that were somehow true, then the consist would always be in reverse when I boarded the 49 on Sunday, but it never is. She shrugged, and assumed it must have been a different train, after which I took her to breakfast and she regaled me with stories about her budding opera career (seriously).

Ironically enough.. on this consist, I encountered a car that I'd seen once before - I think it was 25115 (it also has a Swordfish, but that's a different thread). This car is odd in that it's bathrooms and it's traps are in the front - as such, you have two traps (one from the previous car, and the one from 25115) hanging nose to nose.

While walking through this car, I found at the rear that two sets of seats were facing each other - a four pack on each side of the aisle. I told the families that had been seated there how fortunate they were, as I'd never seen that before. However - when I took the same consist back on Sunday (my Friday 48 always becomes my Sunday 49), the seats were all *facing forward*! And then I realized that Miss Elizabeth had been correct, and I wondered how this had escaped me for so long.

Obviously, the AmII seats can turn, but how? Is it that little foot-lever that I see on the sie of each pair of seats, facing the aisle? Moreover - why don't you think that the attendants would do this more often, so that families could all be together like I saw on the 48? Just when I thought I knew everything...

Gare_NY

Yes the little foot level at the base of the seats is for turning them around. I know the Superliners (1 and 2) , and amfleets (1 and 2) are able to turn. Along the lines of any other quipment I couldnt say for sure but I would guess it is very likely.

The reason I didnt want to spin seats when I was a Conductor was due to a couple of reasons. First and foremost, it is not an exactly safe thing to try and turn the seats while the train is in motion!!!!! The other thing is that if you do it for even just one person, now you have 3 coaches with 85 plus people each (if full) that will all want that done for them or something similar. And, yes it is nice to provide for the cutomer, but more often than not youre asked to turn seats while the trains moving.

Basically, and I'm sorry to say it. Basically the whole process and the additional work that it makes for, aside from the number one priority of the safe operation of the train. It is just a pain. And, like I said, it is not a safe pracitce while the train is moving.

Depending on the distance between seats ("pitch"), it may be necessary to spin the seats in sequence so the turning seat will clear its neighbors. Some seats, maybe only on Heritage cars, must first be pulled sideways into the isle before they will clear the side of the car when they are spun.
When I rode the Club car on the 1st through trip from New York to Atlantic City about May 25, 1989, many of the 1st Class passengers wanted to turn their seats after the train reversed near Frankford Jct. An Amtrak official, not part of the crew, objected because it would make the coach cleaners' job harder. PennCentral used that same excuse to jam the reversible seats in Philadelphia area commuter cars.

Why doesn't Amtrak generally provide a section of the car where the seats are grouped in 4? It would seem to me it would solve all issues - those that want to sit together in 4s can while those that just want 2s can go to the other section of the car.

You can find seats of "four" on NEC or Keystone trains. I've seen this particuarly on these routes.

Generally - push the lever down at the bottom of the seat, pull the seat towards you and then turn accordingly. It sort of has to be pulled out away from the wall, as the second step before turning.

And as mentioned, it often takes a sequence to turn the seats, especially if they have leg rests.

They used to turn the Vermonter business class seats while enroute at Palmer. But that was largeyly due to having nice conductors onboard!

The reason 4 sets are rarely done is that Americans often have a problem with facing backwards. It might be from training, as American transit has almost always had almost all forward facing seats.

I think that I saw someplace where the FRA recently regulated that seats must either not turn or must need a key of some sort. This would be for all new builds or major seat replacement projects. Can anyone confirm?

Well, how silly do I feel?

I'd even told Miss Elzabeth that I had once dropped something that had rolled under the seat in front of me, and while down there groping around, I noticed that there were seat supports on each side of the paired coach seats. This, I posited, was proof that they couldn't turn, as there was no centered 'pivot point'.

Well nuts.. now I want to see how this works. This weeks 48 and 49 are still sitting at the second buckets for my part of the trip.. maybe if things are really slow, I might ask an attendant to demonstrate with the crews seats in the back of the car or something.

Oh, and now that I'm thinking of it - as mentioned, 25115 is currently backwards in it's consist (or at least, it was the last two times I've seen it). Why is it, do you all suppose, that they don't just turn all the coach seats around, then place the car in the 'right' direction, with the traps in the rear?

Gare_NY

Steve, I have heard a similar thing - all Metra seats have the ability to flip the backrest to compensate for direction changes, and I've heard that this is no longer permissable per new-build equipment rules.

Tadman wrote:Steve, I have heard a similar thing - all Metra seats have the ability to flip the backrest to compensate for direction changes, and I've heard that this is no longer permissable per new-build equipment rules.

If true, it would seem to me to be yet another example of the ability of government nannies to arbitrarily introduce petty rules that make life less convenient and more expensive. Walkover seats (as the flippable ones used to be called) have been around since the 19th century. How are they now suddenly deemed to be a hazard?

The rotating Amfleet seats don't even flip, if that is somehow now deemed dangerous -- as has been noted above, they have to be pulled out sideways into the aisle to be turned.

One of the NorthEast commuter authorities did recently order new cars with walkover seat backs that work like automobile seat belt ratchets. They jam if the coach or seat back starts to move violently.

While we're on the topic, here's a tip for the truly seating-obsessed. . . .

When vitally necessary, you can swap seat cushions. This is especially useful after you've boarded and triumphantly plopped down into the car's only vacant window seat -- only to discover that the cushion is a flat-as-a-pancake spine destroyer, thanks to far too many years of catering to supersized American posteriors.

Fortunately (and presuming that it's vacant as well), you'll likely notice that the cushion on the aisle seat is far plumper, since those seats score considerably lower on the popularity scale and experience less wear and tear. If that's the case? Just reach way down into the seat cracks, feel around until you find the fabric straps that attach the cushion to the frame, unsnap the snaps, and remove the cushion. Do the same to the other cushion, and then simply swap them so that the aisle cushion becomes the window cushion.

You say you're totally skeeved-out by the thought of putting your hand. . . down there? Understandable. But if the alternative is to have your entire skeletal system thrown out of alignment during a 14-hour ride in a less-than-fluffy Amfleet window seat, a few fleeting moments of squeamishness is a small price to pay.

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East Cleveland - don't give away all the secrets to getting good seat cushions! I'll admit I've had to do this on some "long distance day trains" such as the Adirondack or Maple Leaf!

I also don't get the "lock and key" scenerio for the turning of seats. Commuter agencies in push pull orientation will have to split the cars with some seats facing one way, and some seats facing the other. And it does seem to be true that many don't like to "ride backwards."

Amtrak needs to quickly turn its equipment as quickly as commuter trains, with seats that turn.

Walk over seats can be a pain to work with when a train is in motion, I've had to flip them on some 1930s cars on the Grand Canyon Railway. I think I remember seeing some face to face seats on Amtrak but not in quite some time.

On a side note, I am 95 percent sure i sat by the same opera singer in 2004 westbound on the LSL.

NOW NOW, Mr. House

I know that JR Ewing once noted "the opera aint over until the fat lady sings", but I don't it such is quite as true now as once the case.

During January, I heard Mezzo SopranoSusan Graham perform a Berlioz song cycle, Le nuits d'ete, Op 7, with the Chicago Symphony. Somehow, JR, with his constantly "roving eyes" as Sue Ellen would be quick to note, might have had other "designs" regarding Ms. Graham.

TomNelligan wrote: The rotating Amfleet seats don't even flip, if that is somehow now deemed dangerous -- as has been noted above, they have to be pulled out sideways into the aisle to be turned.

I don't think the new regulations ban the Amfleet (and Superliner) style rotating seats. (Heck even the Shinkansens in Japan have such rotating seats!). My understanding is (which may be wrong, and subject to correction as always) that they place extra requirements on how much force a flipover seat back must be able to endure in a crash before flipping over and pinning the passenger down. The new regulations make some of the current seats non compliant, but all current seats are grandfathered. Only new seats have to comply with the new regulations, and some have expressed concern that this would make the seats too heavy and expensive thus causing transit agencies to start avoiding them.

NJTransit has already moved away from walkover seatbacks to fixed seatbacks (half facing forward and half facing back) in the multi-level cars.

Frankly I find this curiously American obsession with facing forward somewhat amusing. Perhaps a potentially good subject for an anthropological study or something