All things Pennsylvanian AND Keystone West

Isn't it standard practice to limit consists hauled by a single P42 to 7 Superliners before tacking on a helper unit? I know I've seen single units haul 8-10 single level corridor cars, but I'm not sure what the standard practice is on those, because I've also seen those same consists hauled with two P42s.

The Texas Eagle is 8 cars on a good day, and I've only ever known that train to operate with one P42.

Mcoov wrote:The Texas Eagle is 8 cars on a good day, and I've only ever known that train to operate with one P42.

June 15, 2008 was a good day.

Perhaps I'm getting caught up on terminology, but I always thought a "helper" was added for a specific section of a route (to get a coal train over the mountain), not as a second (or third) locomotive that's always part of the consist.

Is the OP asking about the former or latter?

george matthews wrote:

David Benton wrote:Bit of a difference between level ground and a big hill ...

What do they do on the Otira Tunnel these days?

abit off topic , but they use diesel helpers for the freights , the passenger train goes up unassisted .

back on topic , i guess my related question is , would a 2nd engine help speed up the schedule . Can the train climb the hill at track speed , or is it significantly slower ???

If a "helper" was put on an Amtrak train,there's a problem with the engine pulling the train,it maybe able to keep it's HEP up,
but cannot provide "traction" power,that's when the Host RR loans an engine to Amtrak to keep the train moving to the destination.
BEST mph for most Road Freight units is 70.

The only thing I can remember is a "helper locomotive" being added at Altoona during the Conrail years to get the Broadway Limited up and over Horseshoe Curve. But I think this was more to do with a bad engine and Conrail being cautious to make sure everything was kept moving over Horseshoe Curve. I have a hunch it was swapped out in Pittsburgh, but I had gone to sleep and really didn't check the engine in the morning.

I don't know that Amtrak has ever had any regularly assigned helper/pusher across the system. This doesn't count Class I locomotives borrowed to help crippled trains, this just counts regular helper assignments.

That said, I have seen plenty of pictures of UP and SP assigning a pilot unit in the early years that was less for helping and more for insurance in case one of Amtrak's early legacy engines crapped out. I think it was fairly regular practice, but it was Class I prerogative, not Amtrak necessity.

A lot of the time, a second unit on long passenger trains really only provides better acceleration. A single unit can make track speed, it just takes longer to get there. On my home Metra line, a single F40PH is what usually powers the longest train but it's an express with only half-a-dozen stops and the only significant hill it had to accelerate while climbing is when it's almost empty. The single unit has no problem maintaining track speed (OTOH, my usual train home with seven cars can be a long slow climb from a stop up the steepest grade on the part I ride; the express with ten cars hits that grade at 70 mph and doesn't miss a beat). Over on the Metra BNSF lines, an F40 pulling 11 crush-load cars is quite normal.

Larry has a great point:

on the Metra BNSF lines, an F40 pulling 11 crush-load cars is quite normal

This happens day in, day out, all summer long in boiling heat with air conditioning at full tilt, and all winter long in sub-freezing temps with heat at full-boil. One locomotive with shaft-driven HEP.

Helpers are for mile-long freights.

Backshophoss wrote:If a "helper" was put on an Amtrak train,there's a problem with the engine pulling the train,it maybe able to keep it's HEP up,
but cannot provide "traction" power,that's when the Host RR loans an engine to Amtrak to keep the train moving to the destination.
BEST mph for most Road Freight units is 70.

Youtube had a video of a freight loco pushing on the back of i think the california zephyr, can't find it now or i'd post it.

Tadman wrote:Larry has a great point:

on the Metra BNSF lines, an F40 pulling 11 crush-load cars is quite normal

This happens day in, day out, all summer long in boiling heat with air conditioning at full tilt, and all winter long in sub-freezing temps with heat at full-boil. One locomotive with shaft-driven HEP.

Helpers are for mile-long freights.

I think the difference there is that while the P42s are all geared for 110 mph MAS, Chicago probably gears its F40s for 79 mph MAS or so. Big difference in tractive effort, though I don't know the formula or the numbers - whatever the case, a P42 geared for 79 mph ought to be able to handle at least the same size train as an F40.

Would it be true if i said the normal way amtrak does things is typically they put the power on, it stays that way till you get to the end or beginning of wires (or route), and they do not add or subtract power en route outside a normal scheduled engine change unless something is wrong? In the case of pennsylvanian, would it not be far more likely that a freight loco lend temporary help as there are far more of them on the route than gennies, especially out towards altoona where their main shops are? In that case i believe the freight loco would go on the front of the train?

At one time during the Gunn era, the Silver Service trains were actually running with a single AMD-103. I think when one ran out of gas near Alexandria, that was the end of that practice, lol. That incident was discussed on this very forum.

Backshophoss wrote:If a "helper" was put on an Amtrak train,there's a problem with the engine pulling the train,it maybe able to keep it's HEP up,
but cannot provide "traction" power,that's when the Host RR loans an engine to Amtrak to keep the train moving to the destination.
BEST mph for most Road Freight units is 70.

Tadman wrote:I don't know that Amtrak has ever had any regularly assigned helper/pusher across the system. This doesn't count Class I locomotives borrowed to help crippled trains, this just counts regular helper assignments.

That said, I have seen plenty of pictures of UP and SP assigning a pilot unit in the early years that was less for helping and more for insurance in case one of Amtrak's early legacy engines crapped out. I think it was fairly regular practice, but it was Class I prerogative, not Amtrak necessity.

Since this thread is way off topic at this point, I'll jump in and say I don't necessarily agree with these points. Let's turn this around and shoot back to Mr G Moore's point:

Greg Moore wrote:Perhaps I'm getting caught up on terminology, but I always thought a "helper" was added for a specific section of a route (to get a coal train over the mountain), not as a second (or third) locomotive that's always part of the consist.

Is the OP asking about the former or latter?

Amtrak trains traverse vast areas where there are no crew bases or facilities. If additional power is for certain areas, you have two choices: add it at that initial terminal, or contract out to host railroads everytime you need additional "oomph!"

The latter would be expensive and would require a lot of cooperation with the host railroads. Therefore, I submit to you the trains DO have helpers in the form of two engines. There are STRICT guidelines for two unit operation. The vast majority of time you see two units, one is isolated. There are programmed times as to when they are allowed to fire up the second (or third) unit. If the consist is increased, supervisors or CNOC must give the blessing for additional units to be online.

For those of you who suggest the long distance trains have two units for reliability, plenty of trains run single ( 58/59, 68/69, 42/43 as an example.)