All Things Empire Builder

Combining the two trains together, as with the "J-Train" concept, is not possible on this route, because the dining car goes to Seattle and the lounge car goes to Portland. Otherwise the 27/28 passengers would never have access to a dining car east of Spokane; likewise the 7/8 passengers wouldn't get the Sightseer for Glacier Park. So while the 27/28 train consist is all grouped together, the locomotives must still uncouple the two consists, and then uncouple one of the locomotives to connect to the Portland section, then finally reattach the remaining locomotives to the Seattle section. (Or vice-versa, connect the two trainsets together, then connect the engines.)

David, I agree, the simple solution is to use those HEP boxes that are on the Spokane platform. I think it's pure laziness on the Mechanical Department's part to actually have to hook them up. It wouldn't be a problem if it were only 15-20 minutes (since everyone's asleep, the lounge/dining car are closed anyways) but after an hour when you've got the outside station lights on and it's only 40 degrees inside the car (and even colder outside), it gets noticable.

You know what would be an interesting concept - modify some superliner coaches to have a cab on one end. Put one cab at the end of the Portland section and one cab at the end of the Seattle section. Have the Portland section perpetually locomotive-east and the Seattle section perpetually locmotive-west. Then, run the PDX section to Spokane locomotive first and the Seattle section cab car first. Upon arrival, couple cab-face to cab face, hook up MU jumpers, and away you go with walk-thru capability and both engines providing power, just at opposite ends. I know this doesn't jive with "all sleepers together, all coaches together" but sooner or later that 1920's paradigm is going to fall anyway.

Edit: this is so elegantly simple that there's no way a governmentally-owned railroad would ever actually carry it out.

Tadman, your concept is not much simpler than what happens today; and would still require uncoupling the trainsets and uncoupling a locomotive from the engine consist.

In fact, because Spokane is a through station (as are most Amtrak stations), it would actually create a problem because the train would pull into the station, with the cab car at the west end and the engines at the east end. At that point, the Portland section would have to be uncoupled (now without power), and the Seattle section would have to be pulled back, and onto another track. Then, the Portland engine would have to be coupled up, and then switched back onto the Portland consist, connected. The Seattle section would be ready to go.

Today - the combined train arrives, the Portland locomotive (on the head end) and the Portland trainset (at the rear of the train) is uncoupled. The Seattle trainset is already together, so it can depart. The Portland locomotive then couples onto the Portland cars still on the track, and then departs.

The issue of using a cab car over nearly 500 route-miles, on the other hand, is probably likely to be questioned by safety advocates.

taoyue wrote:Then there's then no walkthrough into the other consist. Toronto to Ottawa is a mere 250 miles. Chicago to Spokane is around 1500 miles. The alternative is to put the engine on the end, but can Genesis engines run backwards?

Coupling two entire trainsets together is frequently done in Europe on heavily-travelled corridor or high-speed routes. e.g. TGV. No need for walk through because of the short travel times made possible by high speeds, and because these are two entire trainsets, not three-car sections. Gives double the passenger capacity without having to increase the number of slots in an already-crowded timetable.

On the Southern railway route from London Victoria some trains have three sections. At Haywards Heath one section splits off to Eaastbourne, via Lewes. Another goes on to Southampton via Hove and a third can go to Brighton. Passengers need to know which section they are in, and there are warnings. Extra drivers join the train at the splitting station. Of course these are EMUs, which have been designed so that when they are coupled together there is a corridor connection past the driver's cab.

This has been going on for decades, probably ever since the lines were electrified in the 1930s.

problem is , this train splits around midnight / early morning . ( i don't even recall it when i rode this train ) . you dont want people in the wrong section .
there's really no need for specialist equipment for a train that splits once in its 2000 mile + journey .

And don't ANYONE dare suggest that the EB be "re-equipped" with a four-car trainset manufactured by Colorado Railcar that could just be dumped in Spokane and continue to Portland on its own!

Besides, that'd be one ugly thing to photograph. Makes the Genesis locomotives look like a precious steam engine! But it would actually be functional and eliminate the matter of switching the train around. However, can the driveshafts be disengaged easily (to be towed east to Chicago)?

Hey I once rode an LRV for three hours, it can't be much different than riding medium density seating for 24 hours...

For those keeping score, the LRV was from St. Sebastian to Bilbao, Spain. It was a 3' gauge (approx) and had seats similar to those found on the Chicago L - fiberglass with a cloth covering, but no padding. However, the line itself was built to standards similar to an Insull interurban, down to the Bilbao riverside station reminding me of the CA&E in Aurora or Elgin.

Ok guys. From my understanding as to how the 27/28 sections are switched at Spokane makes perfect sense. Let me make sure I have this right though. Train arrives Spokane heading for Seattle/Portland. Lead unit is for the 27 section. Train pulls up, sets out 27 section. Train goes back to track it was first on. Then the lead unit is cut off and doubles back to the 27 section to leave.

If my understanding is as such, this is the mosti simplistic way to make that basic change in the consist.

With the matter of ground power, if all they are doing is this basic move, the cars should only be without power for abou 15 to 20 mins given the crews have more than 6 months experience each! With all the new hires this could be pissible. But I doubt it because I believe SPK has old heads. Anyhow, when the cars are cut off the rear the hep needs to be shut down for safety to disconnect the 480 cables between the two cars at the section split. Then the cables have to be looped at the end of the #7 section. If they are going to put the engine back on after setting the 7 section over it makes no sense at all to hook up to ground power. Reason being you would have to loop the car you just cut away from the 7 section. Then you would have to undo the cables at the rear of the 27 section and plug them into the ground power. By the time a mechanical guy got done doing this and turned it on the engine would be ready to couple to it.

When making these types of switch moves you have to consider how long it is going to take to do other tasks not associated, i.e. hooking the ground power up. If you are on time would you rather take a 30 min delay because you just had to have that ground power on for 5 mins before them turning it off or would you rather depart on time?????

As I was told when I learned to switch in freight...... "there are only two ways to switch kid, you can switch smart or switch stupid!"

Using that ground power or going through all the other suggestions would not only have no cost effectiveness to them but it would lead to essentially what I would consider extremely stupid switching.

Actually it goes like this.. 28 arrives from PDX and the power is cut off. the power then doubles back down the 2nd Station track and clears up on the stub. #8 comes in from Seattle, pulls past 28's train on the main and backs down on top, making the joint. Train 7 is the reverse... 7 cuts and runs and the Portland crew brings the power off the stub and backs down on to their train.

Really Simple People

So why is the hep off for an hour then ?

It's not, unless there is a mechanical problem while slinging the cables.. If for some chance they can't get the Train Line Complete circuit then there is a problem, but once they have the air and cables hooked up, they should bring the power back on

Well at least they keep a unit in SPK to work the 27 section. With how everyone before described it , I thought they had 3 units and used the lead unit to double back against the 27 section.

At least there is more clarity on that now here!

Hey amtk1007. Other than the BEE being Beech Grove, I believe all the other codes you have listed are actual station codes for time check locations on a delay report. I know when I was a conductor that is how most stations were listed on the delay reports. I never did understand why they used X on the delay reports. At any rate let me know if this is what they are.

With that I am assuming your a trainman along with what your signature is. I dont think very many people are going to be able to figure out what the stations are if they are infact delay roprt station codes. Maybe someone whos a trainman out of CHI would know.

AMTK1007 wrote:It's not, unless there is a mechanical problem while slinging the cables..

When I lived in Kalispell, MT, I rode the Empire Builder several times a year between Whitefish and either Portland or Seattle (depending on whether I was on vacation (Seattle) or visiting family (Portland).

Each time, the train power was off for an extended period of time. Fortunately, my travels weren't always in the winter, but more often than not it was.

Actually 27/28 are now running with 2 units back to back that ping pong between Portland and Spokane. It used to be that they cut a unit off of 7 for 27and some other assorted mess, but this is much cleaner and simpler.. this way they also do not need to Wye the unit in Spokane

AmtkP40 Check your e-mail!

[email protected] wrote:Well at least they keep a unit in SPK to work the 27 section. With how everyone before described it , I thought they had 3 units and used the lead unit to double back against the 27 section.

At least there is more clarity on that now here!

Hey amtk1007. Other than the BEE being Beech Grove, I believe all the other codes you have listed are actual station codes for time check locations on a delay report. I know when I was a conductor that is how most stations were listed on the delay reports. I never did understand why they used X on the delay reports. At any rate let me know if this is what they are.

With that I am assuming your a trainman along with what your signature is. I dont think very many people are going to be able to figure out what the stations are if they are infact delay roprt station codes. Maybe someone whos a trainman out of CHI would know.

The Process has changed in the past. the Portland Section may be off power for 15 minutes or so, while the Seattle Section will be off for much less. The Problem is that the Portland unit has to be out of the way before 8 can tie on and cannot access 27 until 7 gets out of the way...

wigwagfan wrote:

AMTK1007 wrote:It's not, unless there is a mechanical problem while slinging the cables..

When I lived in Kalispell, MT, I rode the Empire Builder several times a year between Whitefish and either Portland or Seattle (depending on whether I was on vacation (Seattle) or visiting family (Portland).

Each time, the train power was off for an extended period of time. Fortunately, my travels weren't always in the winter, but more often than not it was.