Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

Adirondacker wrote:Reassign them to someplace that still has a patch of asphalt by the side of the freight tracks with a bus shelter on it. Or turn them into reefs. The itty bitty fleet of conventional railcars in California isn't worth the effort of worrying about.

Amtrak California (including Surfliners) has 184 Superliners cars
Caltrain has 93 Galley cars
Caltrain has 25 Bombardier Bilevel cars
Coaster has 28 Bombardier Bilevel cars
ACE has 25 Bombardier Bilevel cars
Metrolink has 142 Bombardier Bilevel cars {Generation (1) 92, (2) 24, (3) 26}
Metrolink will have 137 Hyundai Bilevel cars
Subtotal of low floor railcars in California = 614
Almost every one of these existing railcars will visit stations that CHSR will stop at.

For comparison purposes only, here's Amtrak's roster.......
120 Acela (trailers without traps) (20 train sets of 6 trailers and 2 power cars)
426 Amfleet I (high floors without traps_
145 Amfleet II (with traps)
97 Horizons (with traps)
180 Viewliners (with traps)

California's fleet of low floor railcars exceeds Amtrak's fleet of high floor railcars without traps, 614 to 546! I don't believe that truth is insignificant or should be ignored.

Caltrain plans to replace it's existing fleet of low floor railcars for high floor railcars upon hanging wires over its tracks, but hasn't found the money to do so yet. Even if successful, their 117 railcars still leaves 497 low floor railcars in service in California.

electricron wrote: Almost every one of these existing railcars will visit stations that CHSR will stop at.

So Caltrain is going to patch together it's 30 year old cars for another 20 years and then work around incompatible platforms for the next few centuries because it saves a few thousand dollars in 2029?

Almost every one of those cars will be far past it's useful life by the time California has more than two HSR stations. Reassign them. Sell 'em off. They aren't worth the effort. It's cheaper to ignore they exist.

jstolberg wrote:

ApproachMedium wrote:The point of the air bellows is so that the train has a consistent height at ANY load. The leveling valves automatically adjust the car at each corner for load shifting etc. Springs on the primary suspension provide load bearing for the train while the secondary suspension air springs/bellows provide for ride comfort and auto load adjustments. the height they list there is also a height of the car above the rail head. The change in height of a car/train by wheel size and wear is quite minimal and not noticed by the passenger. Its only about an inch or two overall that can be seen. A 36 inch diameter wheel arrives as almost 37 inches and is allowed to wear down to about the mid 35s on conventional equipment. The tolerances may be tighter however on Tier II HSR.

Thanks for the clarification. So the BBD Zefiro at 49.6 inches and the Siemens Velaro at 49.2 inches should be able to stay at or above the 48-inch platform even under a full load, with worn springs, and after a few wheel trims. Allowing for 51 inches seems to be a desire to allow the Japanese to also compete. The Californian backers like to think that their system will be just like Japan's bullet trains.

Basically. That height could range anywhere between 53 inches and 50 inches about with wheel and spring wear etc. The air suspension does not compensate for the primary spring wear or wheel wear but you will find in the industry there are levels of tolerances. 51 inches is probably the average height the things will be close to during normal operations. People getting on and off a train are not going to notice a difference in one to two inches difference between cars at the platform.

*Dont use my numbers as gospel, i am basing this off estimates used from working on locomotives. The numbers defined by Amtrak maintenance for coaches and the FRA may vary. I do have a good working knowledge of these suspension systems however.

electricron wrote:[
Almost every one of these existing railcars will visit stations that CHSR will stop at.
.

Thats not true at all.

The trunk of the CAHSR is essentially the San Joaquin line. The plan is to mostly discontinue the San Joaquin, with potentially keeping 2-3 trains a day running on the standard freight tracks to make stops at the small towns served today (Waco, Madera, etc).

In the central valley, HSR and Amtrak would never share tracks.

The Capital Corridor line wont be HSR until 2050, if ever. AT no point does the CC cross with CAHSR.

The Pcaific Surfliner wont be HSR until 2050, if ever. While CAHSR and PS will meet at LA Union, the plan is fr standard tracks for Metrolink and Amtrak, and special tracks for HSR.

The only place where HSR will mix with traditional rail (and not Amtrak) is coming into San Francisco, and thats an issue with Caltrain.

Given that Amtrak is planning to replace the current Acela trains and also replace the current NE Regional rolling stock (of course, engines are already being replaced), what will happen to the current Acela trains?

Also, do you guys anticipate the new Acela trains having an economy/coach/second class (whatever you want to call it)? Or will the new trains still have this insane exclusion of the working class (or just those who think it's silly to have to pay a business class fare to ride the most modern, fastest train by eliminating coach/second class?

I can't think of any other country on Earth that runs -- by way of a government-sponsored rail service -- a train geared exclusively for wealthy business types with the explicit exclusion of second class/coach seats. As the Washington Monthly once wrote, Acela is merely a 'gated community' for business types (and other people with money to burn) that segregates passengers by income. Italian, Chinese, Japanese, French, German high-speed trains (even the nicest trains, such as Italy's new Italo or France's newest TGV sets) all place all classes (incredible first class, a business class and then a second class) on the same train going at precisely the same speed.

Will true high-speed rail in the Northeast (or, in our case, the illusion of high-speed rail on new train sets) always just be for the wealthy?

ajl1239 wrote:Given that Amtrak is planning to replace the current Acela trains and also replace the current NE Regional rolling stock (of course, engines are already being replaced), what will happen to the current Acela trains?

Also, do you guys anticipate the new Acela trains having an economy/coach/second class (whatever you want to call it)? Or will the new trains still have this insane exclusion of the working class (or just those who think it's silly to have to pay a business class fare to ride the most modern, fastest train by eliminating coach/second class?

I can't think of any other country on Earth that runs -- by way of a government-sponsored rail service -- a train geared exclusively for wealthy business types with the explicit exclusion of second class/coach seats. As the Washington Monthly once wrote, Acela is merely a 'gated community' for business types (and other people with money to burn) that segregates passengers by income. Italian, Chinese, Japanese, French, German high-speed trains (even the nicest trains, such as Italy's new Italo or France's newest TGV sets) all place all classes (incredible first class, a business class and then a second class) on the same train going at precisely the same speed.

Will true high-speed rail in the Northeast (or, in our case, the illusion of high-speed rail on new train sets) always just be for the wealthy?

I'm not certain where you get your information about fare structure but it's not accurate. The ICE does include second class, yes, but second class costs more on the ICE then it does on slower IC (InterCity) or EC (EuroCity) trains, particularly if no change of train is required. Compare trips between Cologne and Frankfurt and you'll see the variation. You can't treat second class in Europe as comparable across the board. Even if you have a second class rail pass in Europe, many express trains require you to pay a supplement beyond that, and then more to guarantee a seat reservation.

It's also the case that many routes in Europe don't have alternatives: Cologne-Berlin is one example. There's nothing but high-speed trains (ICE) on that route. Amtrak doesn't have sufficient equipment for that option, so you get a mix of regular and express equipment with varying service levels.

If you compare New York-Boston on January 6 at the "value" level, the typical price of Reserved Coach (second class) on a Northeast Regional is $73 vice business class on the Acela Express for $109. I'm not certain that $36 represents a gated community, particularly when the difference in travel time is 30 minutes.

Based on the precedent of the original Metroliner MUs that became cab car coaches for conventional trains, the Acela sets could easily wind up covering non-premium Corridor runs with their seats replaced by a standard coach configuration. But Amtrak could also decide they're too heavy and hard to maintain and worn out.

I too find the lack of standard coach seating on the Acelas annoying, but the business and first class only thing was part of Amtrak's marketing concept for the trains and they have in fact been able to sell the service at a premium rate.

Will the new Acela sets include coach/2nd class seats?

I just think it's so silly that Amtrak feels it's OK to segregate people on different trains -- in Europe, even the nicest, fastest high-speed trains have everything from second class cars to super-primo first class coaches -- and all classes on those nice trains go exactly the same speed.

Regarding A-I's, I don't know how Amtrak classifies the traps (IE "emergency") but there are a lot of trains that use A-1's for low-platform corridor use (and at one time there was a lot more) where the traps were used quite regularly, especially midwest and california.

As for segregation of classes on Acela, I think that's a revenue issue - an all-first/business train with no coach section probably yields more revenue than a mixed class train. The practice isn't exactly unheard of, either. The premier corridor trains in PRR and NH days were all-parlor. I believe they were the Merchants Limited on NH and the PRR Senator.

Since it would appear that the originator's intent was more to make a 'social statement' than ask what the disposition of the existing Acela equipment will be, let it be noted that 'straight' unrestricted European rail fares are 'uh, not exactly' in the bargain basement. In a word, their fare levels more resemble Northeast Corridor than they do Long Distance Coach.

Since somehow I think most here when contemplating overseas travel think in terms of the Passes that are not sold to nationals within the European community - and then to 'run a marathon' with them (I've done it myself during younger and railfanning days), being confronted with unrestricted fares is uncommon.

Well, I agree that Amtrak has made significant revenue by marketing the Acela as a kind of rolling boardroom without prodigious crying children or rowdy teenagers, but it strikes me as quite problematic -- from a sociological standpoint -- for our national, government-sponsored passenger railroad to provide a service exclusively available to those of very high means. (In regards to the first reply, how often is the difference between Acela and NE Regional from NYC-DC just about $30? I look now, months in advance, and see a difference at most times of day of about $130!).

My point is that I hope, when Acela is replaced, Amtrak will not continue to exclude the majority of the population from high-speed travel on its most modern rollings stock. Right now, that is the entire Acela paradigm -- that the new 'fast' train is only for business travelers and first class folks. In contrast, the French TGV trains not only ALL include second-class seating, but they have even repurposed some TGV trains -- the 'Ouigo' branding -- as a kind of budget airline on steel wheels. Right now, it's kind of a moot point, because if you want to pay $150-$200 extra to travel just 15-30 minutes faster, knock yourself out! But if we were to get trains actually capable of traveling at a faster speed (say some kind of Pendolino train that is lighter and with real tilting capabilities), it would be really horrible for Amtrak to not include coach (European '2nd class') on those trains.

Finally, yes, I know about the difference between regional and super-express trains in Europe (I'm European), but it's also the case in Europe that a second-class ticket on the ICE or TGV or Renfe or Trenitalia or Italo -- purchased either in advance or the same day -- is, generally, cheaper (or equal to, but more generally much cheaper) than even a NE Regional ticket on the Northeast Corridor.

Considering people pretty much agree that Acela makes an operating profit, I'm ok with the current class system.

Longer trains might change that, but I tend to doubt it.

As for other usage, perhaps turn them over to Keystone Service at the slower speeds. Replace the push-pull trains currently in use and free up those cars for other service.

In regards to Acela not offering second class seating, it is the only Amtrak service that explicitly includes "First Class". By process of elimination, what does that make Business class?

As for the trainsets themselves, the future addition of new trainsets means that Amtrak will be able to take apart existing AX sets, lengthen them, and finally use the two power cars per set to their full potential. Unless the Keystone Service speaks for them, I'd expect to see them remain in first class service until retirement at a reasonably young age.

ajl1239 wrote:Will the new Acela sets include coach/2nd class seats?

I just think it's so silly that Amtrak feels it's OK to segregate people on different trains -- in Europe, even the nicest, fastest high-speed trains have everything from second class cars to super-primo first class coaches -- and all classes on those nice trains go exactly the same speed.

For all intents and purposes, the Regionals and the AX have the same maximum speed as well, and they offer three classes of travel between then (First Class, Business Class, and Coach Class.) I am surprised that Amtrak doesn't offer a first class Metroliner car on standard Regional service, but perhaps they feel the market is saturated and they don't want to dilute the Acela brand.

Besides, there simply won't be room on the Acelas for third class (standard coach) seating, even if they expand the length of their trainsets considerably. First and business are just that popular.