48 gets delayed courtesy of the NS, but not for trains

6/27:
48 was 'bannered' somewhere west of Toledo last night by the NS. The crew was taken out of service. Then if that wasn't enough the relief crew was taken out of service also! I don't know the reason for the 2nd crew.

48 was 10 hours late out of Depew NY today with only one unit working on top of this!

Possibly for not having all of their books/bulletins up tp date.

We should note that Amtrak employed Train and Engine crews not only are under the jurisdiction of Amtrak operating officers but also those of the host railroads as well.

Heard first crew ran the banner, which is like running a stop sign and hitting a car or a person in front of a cop only you cant talk your way out of it. You will receive at least a 30 day vaction with no pay. NS also likes to put banners back to back to make sure you follow the rules after taking a delay in block and stopping for the banner. Im not familar with NS rules and how this would be handled.

Enough jargon. What's a banner?

Sorry..........a 'Banner' really isn't a banner, it is a yellow sign that is placed between the rails (looks like one of those 'wet floor' signs) when a crew is given permission to pass a stop signal. The train has to stop 'short' of the 'banner'. Usually the way the dispatcher tells the train it is 'strange' that he can't get the signal (depending on the dispatcher and probably the host RR). Hearing then do this, it was obvious that it was a 'trap' for a banner.

The first crew apparently 'ran' the banner, the big question is about the 2nd crew!

In spite of what happened in DeWitt (East of Syracuse NY) a while back, delaying a 'hot' passeneger train 10 hours is completely unnecessary!
The Road Foreman could of rode with the engineer to the next terminal where they could of been relieved!

I would like to think the crew wouldn't of been taken out of service for just not having their books ESPECIALLY considering what just happened!

Fear through intimidation!

A banner is a brightly colored object placed in obstruction of a track in order to operationally test compliance with restricted speed -- specifically the part of the restricted speed definition that calls for being able to stop within one half the range of vision.

The test procedure, as required by FRA regs, is to first set up a situation covertly where the crew is required to operate at restricted speed (such as setting a signal to "stop & proceed"), then position the banner across the track in an area where vision distance is limited to test the compliance with being able to stop in accordance with the operating rule.

If the train knocks down the banner, it was going too fast -- or the crew was not watching out ahead for trains, obstructions, switches improperly lined, etc., as required by the definition of restricted speed.

If the banner had been a stopped train, 48 would have struck it, a definitely undesirable occurrance.

Operating officers, such as road formen, are charged with performing an "adequate" level of of this kind of testing. It is not "entrapment," as is often claimed by operating crews or union representatives. It is, in fact, a legitimate method for helping to ensure operational safety.

The 'issue' isn't the banner, it is the delay to that train! Not just once, but twice!

John McCain in action?

Even though the poll feature is disabled here at this Forum, here's one anyway?

Should Amtrak trains be exempt from "signal tests' or any other 'laying in the weeds' activities by the host's operating officers?

I vote NO WAY

I also vote for safety.

It's only a matter of time...

- IF Gil's scenario plays out (freight rr's lose right to safety test Amtrak),
- THEN after the next fatal Amtrak accident, some surviving family or estate of the dead person will sue the freight railroad for negligently failing to practice due diligence against the operating crews.
- AND THEN the courts will uphold the suit, saying there are limits to contractual shields against actions!

My two cents here.

John

Unfortunate as this was for innocent passengers, it should be a wake-up call for Amtrak Operations.

Could NS have handled it in such a manner as to limit delays? Probably.

Should Amtrak trains be exempt from operational scrutiny and testing? As John says, the lawyers would have a field day with that one when the inevitable collision occurred resulting in injury or fatality.

The truth is that testing of this nature overwhelmingly results in a passing grade for crews. My feeling is that this valuable information should be relayed to crews more immediately and more consistently.

I've had discussions with safety people within NS who soundly reject this notion, though. Their philosophy is one of "management by exception," something I believe doesn't work well with people. The folks in Norfolk won't admit to it openly, but fear definitely is their primary motivator, injury reporting statistics not withstanding.

Overt and specific confirmation that someone is watching as operators do something right makes them feel much better about what they are doing, and helps to reinforce safe habits.

Had NS actually cared about the passengers on board 48 they could have set the test up close to one of the crew change terminals so pass or fail the passengers would have have gotten the royal screwjob.

And -- if the Amtrak engineer really cared about the passengers, he/she would have operated the train in accordance with the rules that govern movement of the train in a safe manner.

And -- if Amtrak Operations really cared about the passengers, they would have have an idea that their crews needed more attention out there.

Mr JM,

To my 1KB of flesh and blood RAM, COVERT implies "well into the run."

When are folks going to be getting tired and off-pace? It seems to me that point would be bewteen 4-6 hours of running, in an 8 hour scheduled shift.

Of course, if you are interested in challenging Norfolk Southern's position on this matter, THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY to do so is to buy its stock and challenge the policy as a shareholder. Of course, YOU will have to work hard to justify your shareholder proposal to the institutional holders of NS.

All we get to do here is ventilate "feelings."

John

One slight correction here, the road foreman or whoever could go out with
a witness and a signal maintainer and shunt out a track circuit affecting
only one automatic signal causing it to display a stop and proceed
indication. After stopping for the signal, a train must proceed at restricted
speed until the entire train has passed the next signal provided it displays
a more favorable indication. Average length of a block on former Conrail
between Amsterdam and Buffalo is about two miles so it can be a mighty
slow ride through that block, especially with a long freight train.
Restricted speed is not exceeding 15 MPH for a freight train, prepared to
stop short of train, obstruction etc, (there is more to the rule but I will not
type it all out here). Restricted speed is what I considered a "judgement"
speed, as long as it did not exceed 15 MPH, in bad weather conditions,
night time, fog, rain or snow, it could be mighty slow. In extreme
situations, a freight train could lose in excess of an hour on one red
signal.
These type of tests are required by federal regulations and the railroad
must keep accurate records of each test administered and the results of
each test.
No railroad really likes to do this stuff, it ties up their operation, sometimes quite badly but it is necessary and required, for all trains,
commuter, amtrak and everything else.
Two Rules:
Live up to all signal indications and all rules, all of the time, where ever
you are working, one percent of the time, always, always, always.
Make sure your "Out of Service Insurance" is paid up at all times, in this
case, especially on the Norfolk Southern
Noel Weaver