#44 plate at RRMusLI

While I think circumstance make it look likely that this number plate came off an overturned LIRR G5s (wreck at Aquebogue in the thirties), there is evidence doesn't seem to support it.

There is a picture of #29, fresh from Juniata Shops in Pennsy Power (I), page 119, clearly showing that the round number plate were mounted with three threaded rods, exactly as were the Keystones. The Museums plate has a single threaded mounting lug in the center. PRR plates all had flat rims, not half-rounded as does the Museums plate. Pennsy round plates measured 17" external diameter, which the Museums does not. There is no evidence of paint on the Museums plate, whereas PRR issued the G's with red paint and gold trim.

If one compares the plate to the photo in Steel Rails, with the locomotive on it's side, I detect a slight anomaly in the numerals as well.

This is either a devilish coincidence or a very unique PRR plate. I am willing to assert that the Museum plate is not off a G5s.

Not to be apart of the "me too" crowd. but when I saw 44's plate at RMLI something didnt look quite right to me. It did seem smaller in diameter then I expected, but the boarder is what threw me off. All pictures of the round number plates make the boarder look flat where as the 44 number plate has a radius. On my 1.5" scale number plate, the boarder is flat as well. I have never seen any other PRR round numberplates up close and personal to judge. I also asked the question about the red background as well. Now where in the hell do I find "Mars" red?

I agree . . . there was something wrong about that plate but I couldn't put my finger on it.

It should have been FLAT around the edge.

Here's one in 1939, nice and flat with gold edge:


And 1937 with gold edge:


And 1940 with gold edge:


Dave Keller

OK men,

I go off to work in the CHOOCH Yard for a few days and you guys turn the world upside down! Not an original PRR number plate you say???? As Homer Simpson would say - "DOIGHT!"

Well, jayRMLI offered up the rural legend that the plate came from the tipped loco in Aquebogue. It was donated by the owner of a Mattituck lumber yard that used LIRR freight service back when. You can see where the connection can be made.

I must agree with all of you, the photos are compelling testaments that the number plate we have may not be PPR/LIRR! Our plate is very different from the other plates in Ron's book.

Now a mystery has to be solved! I will look into this and see what I can dig up. The two sons of the donor continue to operate the lumber yard today, they might have some recollection as to where dad got the thing.

Can we think of any railroads that might have used a number plate like the one we have here???

de Don, n2qhvRMLI

Don: I can't think of one, but my guess- serious guess- is that the lumber yard guy got the plate from somebody who knew about the LIRR wreck and wanted to a) make a joke, or b) create a souvenier-type thing. I have no doubt that it is a real steam locomotive number plate, but just not off a steam locomotive contemporary to the period. Now here's another thought, without having checked Ziel's book roster, could LIRR have owned another #44 in history? If so, the plate presenter could well have owned the plate off a locomotive that had been scrap for decades, and confused the two engines. One 44 is as good as another to most people, so why not? Plenty of leads to track down. My best hunch is the last one, since the previous two would take too much effort to conjure.

While you're at it, you might try to forma short-list of all known LIRR steam locomotive number plates, and where they are today. I'm betting that if the Museum approached owners about donating them either as a tax credit or at the time of their deaths, the plates would come forward. At anyrate, it would be nice to know which are preserved adn which are lost to history. I have been told that #113 was given by Goodfellow to a friend as a footstool!

If I remember correctly, the LIRR had a group of camelbacks that were purchased in the 1890's which were numbered in the 100's. These were rebuilt and then numbered starting with 40 or 41. I'm not home right now so I can't look this stuff up. It's possible that this plate is off a camelback which in my opinion makes it rarer than a G-5!. The one thing that bothers me is that all pictures I have seen of early LIRR locos, the plate clearly have a gold or painted rim and this one doesn't.

If you take a close look at some of those early number plates, many (not all) have the builder's name on them as well (such as Baldwin Locomotive works).

The ones on the D52, D56, etc. American-classes (I believe there was a #44 in this class without having my roster to hand) looked just like the G5s plates:


Here's an example of the BLW plates:


Dave Keller

Good evening gentlemen,

RR Chef has a very good memory! Indeed, the LIRR had a group of Rogers locomotives, numbers 27 through 56 that were passenger 4-4-0's class D-52.

Built in 1888, D-52 #44 was rebuilt (looks like by Baldwin) into Camelback D-53 #112 in 1898.

Could it be that our number plate is not from a G5s but from the original old Rogers !?!?!?!?!?!?

The photos of Camelbacks in Ron's "Steel Rails to the Sunrise", pages 104 - 119, show many different styles of number plates. On page 109, a profile shot of #154, shows that her number plate indeed was afixed to the smokebox with one center stud, just like our #44! On page 108, although not sharply clear, the #151 number plate looks similar to ours in that there is no apparent outer ring of gold paint.

I agree with RR Chef, if this plate is from the old girl, it is RARE!

I like Rich's idea. We can start right here in the Forum. Anyone who owns or knows the whereabouts of any authentic LIRR number plates they would consider donating to the Railroad Museum of Long Island may contact me, Don Fisher, Trustee, at: [email protected].

Thank you!

de Don n2qhvRMLI

Really, I have no "new" information to impart to this discussion, but as I consider the plate in question and review the photographs, I am about 95% convinced that this is a number plate off aon older LIRR locomotive, and very possibly a Camelback conversion. All this is supposition, and my sense tells me we will never get closer than that for an answer or certainty. It makes for a convincing scenario though, doesn't it? Wreck with G5s #44, two men talking about it, one says, "I have the #44 number plate in my barn, cellar, attic, garden. WOuld you like it? It would look really great on your wall!"

Somewhere in someone's archive is a picture of 44 (1st) and 44(2nd) and could it be that G5s 44 was 44(3rd)? Also, with those 4X5 negatives from those old Speed Grafflex press cameras, I bet if you had a fine grain enlargement of the wreck scenes, you may be able to locate 44's number plate on the ground. If it's not visable in any of the wreck scenes then who knows, some one may have grabbed it right off the bat ( I would have)
-or- it may be still burried out there somewhere, but I highly doubt it.
Anyone up for some good old fasion sleuthin'?
I tend to believe that the number plate at RMLI is an original to LIRR, just not a G5s.

If G5s #44 WAS the locomotive on its side in the mud in "Steel Rails to the Sunrise" (don't have my copy to hand at the moment to check the number), then I recall the engine was still wearing its number plate in the photo.

Dave

Per Richard Glueck: I have been told that #113 was given by Goodfellow to a friend as a footstool!

No surprise there, seeing it was his order to dump all the LIRR glass plate valuation negatives from 1921 and earlier in the trash dumpster!!

Dave Keller

Dave: Goodfellow was no historian, that's for certain, but he did allow Jim Schultz to save two locomotives, and that's something. Goodfellow was an old Pennsy man, all the way, and Pennsy bred officials had a company attitude and line which they were to follow. If you turned down a PRR offered promotion once, you were never asked again, and your career was, well, not stigmatized, but certainly "limited"

Regarding the photo of #44 on her side in "Ziel's Rail's", yes, she wore her number plate while on the ground, and it was undamaged. The resolution of the photo is enough to show that we are talking about two different plates. The onus will be to determine if the style matches that off an earlier locomotive, and then, which one. I suspect that unless there is a spectacular stroke of luck with documentation, we'll never know for certain.

I'd still like to know which G5 and H-10 plates are extant. I assume RRMusLI has the 38 plate off the 39. A nice money making scheme would be to cast full size replicas in resin, for a $100 donation.