1982 RDC wreck details?

JonnyRay wrote:Can someone tell me more about Mike Syzlagi's RDC photo at Dekalb street? If I remember, Dekalb st is on the Norristown line. Was this a train to Reading?

Yes, RDC's filled most of the runs to and from Reading and Pottsville, along with the FP-7 push-pull train which made one Reading round trip per day. I'm not sure why there would have been a meet between the RDC and EMU at DeKalb on that day, the RDC's typically ran all the way to Reading Terminal.

trainspot wrote:Thank you all! I thought it might be the car in the accident but wasn't sure, as I didn't live here at the time.
I have more Newtown Line photos from a day trip in 1983, and some recent photos here:
http://trainspot.rrpicturearchives.net/ ... x?id=27175

Interesting, as the 1983 date is 8/1/1983. Service ceased in February 1983, so those RDCs had been sitting there idle already for six months.

I remember seeing all the RDC's parked on a siding down at Philadelphia Naval Shipyard after they were moved from Newtown. Not sure how long they actually sat there though.

dreese_us wrote:I remember seeing all the RDC's parked on a siding down at Philadelphia Naval Shipyard after they were moved from Newtown. Not sure how long they actually sat there though.

Does anyone have pix of the RDCs post-Newtown service? Also, I am trying to put together an online photo database of Newtown operations. Does anyone have any pix of service on the line in the 70s and 80s (post-service 80s, too)?

SEPTA STIFFENS RAIL-SAFETY RULES
Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA)
January 7, 1982
Author: FREDRIC N. TULSKY
Estimated printed pages: 3
By Fredric N. Tulsky
Inquirer Staff Writer

SEPTA general manager David L. Gunn has ordered more stringent safety precautions along the Fox Chase-Newtown commuter rail line, and state investigators have joined federal officials in the investigation of Saturday's collision on the line.

Gunn said yesterday that he had ordered that only two-car trains be run on the 15.2-mile single-track line. The order came after officials of unions representing railroad workers said that SEPTA was not following proper safety standards by running single-car trains on the line.

SEPTA took over operation of the line from Conrail on an experimental basis in September in an effort to reduce the amount of money spent to run commuter trains. Conrail had used four-person crews to run two- car diesel trains between Newtown and Reading Terminal. SEPTA, however, cut the number of cars and operators in half and terminated the route at Fox Chase
Station in the Northeast.

At the time of the takeover, angry members of Conrail unions warned that SEPTA was not equipped to run commuter trains and predicted that an accident would occur.

SEPTA, trying to shoehorn a transit mentality into a railroad division. a red flag should have gone up right there, saying SEPTA should not inherit the railraod division, but rather a new entity be created. The result of this mis-step can be seen on each and every R-line.

Pacobell73 wrote:SEPTA, trying to shoehorn a transit mentality into a railroad division. a red flag should have gone up right there, saying SEPTA should not inherit the railraod division, but rather a new entity be created. The result of this mis-step can be seen on each and every R-line.

Hmmm...that's a bit hyperbolic. What SEPTA was trying to do was to take a money-bleeding service with huge costs and miniscule revenue, and attempt to keep rail service operating by thinking outside the box to cut costs rather than simply shut down or bus it (both of which would have been easier and simpler to accomplish). Today, this would be hailed by many of the people on these boards as the most wonderful thing that's happened in the Delaware Valley in the last century, that SEPTA actually tried to keep the mode RAIL rather than follow the normal path - change to buses. It's the typical damned if they do, yadda yadda...I expect it whenever I read these boards.

SEPTA was, and still is, the most direct way of funneling government funds into public transportation in the Philadelphia area. Balkanization by mode doesn't make sense, and it really doesn't happen to any great extent today across the industry. If anything, the move is toward consolidation. It would not have made sense at the time, and it still doesn't make sense today, to split SEPTA up by mode, or to split the railroad mode away from the rest of the authority, into an entity competing for operating and capital funds with the "transit" company.

SEPTA's Railroad Division was staffed in 1983, and is still staffed to this day, with "real" railroaders. They have made mistakes, as did the managers of the Fox Chase-Newtown HS-1 service back in the early 80s. But show me a "real" railroad that has not. This canonization of "real" railroaders versus "transit" people is a total straw man. The railroad at SEPTA, since day one, has been run by people who came from Conrail at first, and later from other "real" railroads. Forming a separate organization to take over service from Conrail would not have changed that an iota, and in fact may have harmed the new organization's ability to secure funding.

I would go so far as to say that the mixture of transit methodology and thinking with the traditional railroad's has on balance been a good thing from a "best practices" standpoint, though it has also led to some blinkered thinking as well, I'll admit.

SEPTA's Railroad Division was staffed in 1983, and is still staffed to this day, with "real" railroaders. They have made mistakes, as did the managers of the Fox Chase-Newtown HS-1 service back in the early 80s. But show me a "real" railroad that has not. This canonization of "real" railroaders versus "transit" people is a total straw man. The railroad at SEPTA, since day one, has been run by people who came from Conrail at first, and later from other "real" railroads. Forming a separate organization to take over service from Conrail would not have changed that an iota, and in fact may have harmed the new organization's ability to secure funding.

I agree with alot of what you said, JB however, I think there is more to the "transitizing".......

Indeed, in 1983, Septa was staffed with "real" railroaders, which came over from Conrail. As well the other agencies that were spun off from what Conrail previously operated.

However, in the 26 years since 1983 has passed MANY of those "real" railroaders have moved on (or passed on) and have been replaced by a newer generation, and sometimes 2 generations. With each generation, the operation becomes more and more "transitized" and more decisions are made "inside" the box than thinking "outside" the box. Of course, there are some great railroaders at many of these operations, however, and the end result seems to be more and more levels of incompetitence which leads to more departments and folks to make the decisions that were previously made by a handful of professionals. This now requires an entirely seperate department now to replace those few folks, where no one can actually make a decision. Now, you have more and more levels of management and less accountability, and its a slippery slope, going downhill, and fast.

Throw in the fact that the railroads are now political (state) organizations and many times all common sense goes right out the window. (not that there is much on any railroad to begin with but still )

There are "railroaders" and then there are "folks that work on the railroad".....they are NOT the same! And in the case of this accident, the "folks who work on the railroad" thought they knew better than the "railroaders," and had more influence, and did what they wanted to. They didn't listen to the "railroaders" and there was a major incident. It was a very preventable, they knew the problem, and how to prevent it from being a problem, but they chose not to listen to those know actually know a thing or two about how things operate, and well this is what happened.

There are COUNTLESS times on the railroad where a good old fashioned "I TOLD YOU SO" is an order, unfortunately, sometimes its after injuries and deaths occur.....

jb9152 wrote:

Pacobell73 wrote:SEPTA, trying to shoehorn a transit mentality into a railroad division. a red flag should have gone up right there, saying SEPTA should not inherit the railraod division, but rather a new entity be created. The result of this mis-step can be seen on each and every R-line.

Hmmm...that's a bit hyperbolic. What SEPTA was trying to do was to take a money-bleeding service with huge costs and miniscule revenue, and attempt to keep rail service operating by thinking outside the box to cut costs rather than simply shut down or bus it (both of which would have been easier and simpler to accomplish).

Well the crux of the problem was net labor costs that made it uneconomical to operate the service, specifically steam-era work rules and pay practices, and payroll taxes and regulations that applied to the railroad industry and not the transit industry. Much of the other stuff that distinguishes a railroad from a transit operation didn't contribute to the problem. In order to keep the system viable, SEPTA needed to modernize the labor contracts so the per-mile cost of operating the trains could be lowered. Considering the amount of service that was shut down in the 80s, and shut down at the drop of a hat (not just Reading and Bethlehem, but also West Chester, Manayunk/Ivy Ridge, and even the bridge-related shutdowns on the Hill West and Media, I wouldn't give SEPTA management much credit for motivation to keep service running, though I agree the entire system would have died if it had to continue with the labor contracts it inherited or even contracts like the ones on the New York roads. There they have enough ridership to get by with the remaining inefficiencies.

Jtgshu wrote:There are "railroaders" and then there are "folks that work on the railroad".....they are NOT the same! And in the case of this accident, the "folks who work on the railroad" thought they knew better than the "railroaders," and had more influence, and did what they wanted to. They didn't listen to the "railroaders" and there was a major incident. It was a very preventable, they knew the problem, and how to prevent it from being a problem, but they chose not to listen to those know actually know a thing or two about how things operate, and well this is what happened.

Actually, with the exception of the train operators themselves, most of the management of HS-1 came from the railroad. They did not simply transplant subway supervision. HOWEVER, the pressure from higher level management to run single car trains did undoubtedly lead to the loss of shunt and the accident.

jb9152 wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:There are "railroaders" and then there are "folks that work on the railroad".....they are NOT the same! And in the case of this accident, the "folks who work on the railroad" thought they knew better than the "railroaders," and had more influence, and did what they wanted to. They didn't listen to the "railroaders" and there was a major incident. It was a very preventable, they knew the problem, and how to prevent it from being a problem, but they chose not to listen to those know actually know a thing or two about how things operate, and well this is what happened.

Actually, with the exception of the train operators themselves, most of the management of HS-1 came from the railroad. They did not simply transplant subway supervision. HOWEVER, the pressure from higher level management to run single car trains did undoubtedly lead to the loss of shunt and the accident.

I've said it before and I'll say it again "those of you who think you know everything are especially annoying to those of us that actually DO"
There still exists in the Ivory Tower (1234 Market) that transit mentality when it comes to railroad operating, they've been 'playing trains' for more than 25 years and still will not admit they don't know what the're doing.

ex Budd man wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again "those of you who think you know everything are especially annoying to those of us that actually DO"
There still exists in the Ivory Tower (1234 Market) that transit mentality when it comes to railroad operating, they've been 'playing trains' for more than 25 years and still will not admit they don't know what the're doing.

I DO know. I was there. I've worked in the passenger rail industry for over 20 years. I worked at SEPTA for some time. I've worked in several other places. I'm currently a senior transportation manager with a commuter railroad. So don't pull the "those of you who think you know..." bullsh*t, thanks.

The system transports huge numbers of people. It operates relatively safely. Could be more efficient, faster, etc., etc. I don't disagree. I also don't disagree that there has been some transit influence on the way SEPTA runs the railroad. You'd have to be blind not to see it.

But to say that the people who were running the railroad when SEPTA came into the picture were not "railroad people" is just not true. AND to act as if the RRD has been an unmitigated disaster (i.e. "they don't know what they're doing", etc.) is plainly misguided at best, and dishonest at worst.

I'm not SEPTA's biggest fan, believe me. But some of this stuff is just stupid. You might not like the way the RRD is run, but to say that SEPTA "doesn't know what it's doing" is hyperbolic, silly, and buff-a-licious. "Railroad people" don't always have all the answers either...and I say this as a 20+ year "railroad person".

jb9152 wrote:and I say this as a 20+ year "railroad person".

Only 20 years? What do YOU know??

Clearfield wrote:

jb9152 wrote:and I say this as a 20+ year "railroad person".

Only 20 years? What do YOU know??

Exactly. It's 24, to be exact.

jb9152 wrote:

ex Budd man wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again "those of you who think you know everything are especially annoying to those of us that actually DO"
There still exists in the Ivory Tower (1234 Market) that transit mentality when it comes to railroad operating, they've been 'playing trains' for more than 25 years and still will not admit they don't know what the're doing.

I DO know. I was there. I've worked in the passenger rail industry for over 20 years. I worked at SEPTA for some time. I've worked in several other places. I'm currently a senior transportation manager with a commuter railroad. So don't pull the "those of you who think you know..." bullsh*t, thanks.

The system transports huge numbers of people. It operates relatively safely. Could be more efficient, faster, etc., etc. I don't disagree. I also don't disagree that there has been some transit influence on the way SEPTA runs the railroad. You'd have to be blind not to see it.

But to say that the people who were running the railroad when SEPTA came into the picture were not "railroad people" is just not true. AND to act as if the RRD has been an unmitigated disaster (i.e. "they don't know what they're doing", etc.) is plainly misguided at best, and dishonest at worst.

I'm not SEPTA's biggest fan, believe me. But some of this stuff is just stupid. You might not like the way the RRD is run, but to say that SEPTA "doesn't know what it's doing" is hyperbolic, silly, and buff-a-licious. "Railroad people" don't always have all the answers either...and I say this as a 20+ year "railroad person".

JB, Im thinking budd man was saying that as a joke. Come on, take a deep breath.....Breath in, breath out.......Feel better??????????Good

jb9152 wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:There are "railroaders" and then there are "folks that work on the railroad".....they are NOT the same! And in the case of this accident, the "folks who work on the railroad" thought they knew better than the "railroaders," and had more influence, and did what they wanted to. They didn't listen to the "railroaders" and there was a major incident. It was a very preventable, they knew the problem, and how to prevent it from being a problem, but they chose not to listen to those know actually know a thing or two about how things operate, and well this is what happened.

Actually, with the exception of the train operators themselves, most of the management of HS-1 came from the railroad. They did not simply transplant subway supervision. HOWEVER, the pressure from higher level management to run single car trains did undoubtedly lead to the loss of shunt and the accident.

You said it all in this post.

"the pressure from higher level management to run single car trains did undoubtedly lead to the loss of shunt and the accident"

Pressure won out over the right thing to do. The right thing was known, and yet it still wasn't done.

Im not trying to imply that "we know everything and they know nothing" - but sometimes egos and pride gets in the way of common sense and the right things to do. And there are PLENTY of mistakes made by both "railroaders" as well as "people who work on the railroad", however, in the the case of this wreck, what was made wasn't a "mistake". It was a conscious decision made, even with full knowledge from those who knew what could happen if what was done was done, and this incident is the result.

"real" railroading compared to "transit" railroading is different - there are different needs, requirements and focuses with regard to operating and moving the masses of people compared to moving sacks of potatoes or TVs. This is probably the case at all transit operations, not just Septa. However, what seems to happen is the "GOTTA GET THE TRAIN THERE ON TIME AT ALL COSTS" mentality wins out more and more over what is safe and at times, legal. A "railroader" knows the rules and works with them to get things done. A "person that works on the railroad" just doesn't give a damn and getting the train from A to B is their only focus, and they don't know or understand the rules that we live and die with.