Why not express?

OK, you're saying $10 billion total cost. I still think that's a bit high, but considering WMATA corruption and incompetence, maybe you're right. That gets the hardware done.

Then, what signalling upgrades are required? It sounds like the bidirectional signals themselves are already in place, which I did not know and which makes the whole project immensely easier. You'd still certainly need a serious software upgrade. Any idea what would be involved there?

"krtaylor"
OK, you're saying $10 billion total cost. I still think that's a bit high, but considering WMATA corruption and incompetence, maybe you're right. That gets the hardware done.

I wouldn't go as far as saying corruption and incompetence, the costs would be driven by bureaucratic red tape and government contractual mandates.

Then, what signalling upgrades are required?

None really, mostly modification to existing ground hardware at rebuilt interlockings and new hardware to control the new interlockings.

It sounds like the bidirectional signals themselves are already in place, which I did not know and which makes the whole project immensely easier. You'd still certainly need a serious software upgrade. Any idea what would be involved there?

Again mostly modification to existing software. Route selection through all interlockings is controlled by destination codes. Wayside and central control knows the train number and destination of every train at any given time. Local wayside would automatically route trains around each other based on train number and or destination codes based on modified schedule tables.

So for somewhere around $10 billion, we could have a workable express-train system at least during rush hours. By the standards of Metro expansions, this seems exceptionally cheap. Why has nobody ever suggested it, as far as I know?

I've always wondered about express service. Sometimes sitting on a train from Shady Grove, I went over in my head how feasible it would be to build a Shady Grove to Bethesda express track.

However, no matter how I look at it the costs would be tremendous, while the benefits wouldn't be. MARC already provides a good substitution for express service from Greenbelt, College Park, New Carrollton, and Rockville. As Sand Box John had said NYCTA Subway is a much slower than Metro (which was built during the Golden Era of railroads, and serves a city extremely dependent on it), not to mention the stops are spaced very closely together. Very few other subway/heavy rail systems utilize a three or four track right of way. None of the other large systems in North America including BART, TTC, or Chicago L (except for the Purple Line) have express service.

What about skip-stop? Not a true express, but it would cut in half the number of station stops a train would make between the endpoints and the downtown, and there would be no infrastructure needed. Seems like a quick and easy way to make things a lot better.

HokieNav wrote:What about skip-stop? Not a true express, but it would cut in half the number of station stops a train would make between the endpoints and the downtown, and there would be no infrastructure needed. Seems like a quick and easy way to make things a lot better.

I wondered about that as well and I think it's a good concept, but on a line like the Red Line that has trains every 2.5 min between Grosvnr and SS, a skip-stop train would run into a local train pretty quickly even adjusting the schedule so they left right before the locals. Even on the 6 min. headway segments between SS and Glenmont and S. Grove and Grsvnr it wouldn't really be worth it since those segments are so short anyway. Although maybe they could skip all (or most) stops on the end portions of the lines where there are 6 min. headways, and have the expresses leave right before the locals.

Of course during the off-peak you don't run into the headway problem, but it would double the time between trains for the "local" stations, (24 min for Red Line, 30 for the others).

You don't have express and locals, what you do is designate every stop between Shady Grove and say Dupont Circle as either "A" or "B". First train out of Shady Grove is a "B" train that skips Rockville and stops at Twinbrook. 2.5 minutes later the "A" train leaves and stops at Rockville. Meanwhile the "B" train has already serviced Twinbrook and continues on to Grovsener (skipping White Flint). The two trains chase each other into the city making every other stop, until you get to the downtown core where people start to get off, then both trains start making every stop to discharge. It isn't true express service, but it cuts down on the time that it takes to get from the endpoint into the city, and just requires some education of riders and some retiming on the schedule.

Right, "skip-stop" was basically my scheme discussed above, where there's no new 3rd track, just the ability for an express train to pop over onto the opposite track and blow through a station passing a stopped local, then switch back to its correct track. Way, way cheaper to add this capability than constructing a whole new 3rd track.

No, that's not what I'm describing at all. No trains pass each other the way that I'm describing it - the time savings come from each train only making half the stops between the endpoint and the downtown area.

HokieNav wrote:No, that's not what I'm describing at all. No trains pass each other the way that I'm describing it - the time savings come from each train only making half the stops between the endpoint and the downtown area.

I get it. Not a bad idea, the only real (obvious) negative is that some people would have to transfer, possibly (but unlikely) up to 4 times. Maybe they could set it up so that major stops such as Union Station, Bethesda, or transfer points would be served by A and B trains, and that the entire "downtown core" would be served by all trains which would more or less drastically the problem above since suburb to suburb commuters are uncommon. I'm also guessing off-peak trains would make all stops. Great idea though, you should forward it to Metro.

I forgot to mention earlier that I've sort of ridden "express" Metro trains before. When I used to commute on the Red Line to Takoma in the morning I remember the operator skipping Fort Totten (yeah, a transfer station) a couple of times, and when I commuted to College Park on the Green Line I remember the trains more than a few times skipping West Hyattsville (although once they decided to skip CP instead, making the CP commuters the unlucky ones). Of course this was all because of schedule adjustment, amd interestingly it was more common on the less busy Green Line than it was on the Red. Anway it still felt good on those days to get to my destination 2 min earlier (particularly since my using the Green Line instead of MARC in the first place, meant I was already running late).

realtype wrote:Maybe they could set it up so that major stops such as Union Station, Bethesda, or transfer points would be served by A and B trains, and that the entire "downtown core" would be served by all trains which would more or less drastically the problem above since suburb to suburb commuters are uncommon. I'm also guessing off-peak trains would make all stops.

Yes, that was exactly my plan. All trains stop at transfer stations and in the inner core; otherwise, expresses run nonstop. So for example, the Orange Line eastbound express would leave from Vienna, go nonstop to East Falls Church (transfer to Silver), then nonstop to Rosslyn (transfer to Blue), then nonstop to Farragut (hopefully, transfer to Red by that time), then become a local the rest of the way.

krtaylor, you still don't get it. There are no "express" trains that run nonstop except for transfer stations and in the downtown area.

Realtype, yeah, I was thinking that Bethesda would have to be a A+B stop since it's a major exit point for some folks and that Union Station would be the first "downtown" stop on the other side. On the MD side even though Stadium/Armory is a "transfer" station, I don't think that there's enough traffic flow coming inbound on orange and outbound on blue to justify making it an "A+B" stop.

I can't take credit for the idea, I read about it here a long time ago (and their explanation is a lot more coherent than mine):
http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post.cgi?id=1753

HokieNav wrote:krtaylor, you still don't get it. There are no "express" trains that run nonstop except for transfer stations and in the downtown area.

I think we are talking past each other. I am well aware that there are currently no "express" trains in the Washington Metro. That's the whole point of the last couple pages of discussion: what would need to be done so there could BE proper "express" trains that run nonstop except for transfer stations and in the downtown area, other than the outrageously expensive addition of a third track.

"Skip-stop" as described in your link is something else, which isn't really express service in the way most people think of it, although it might serve to shorten some people's commutes and has the added advantage of not costing a penny in infrastructure improvements. I think where we got hung up is a confusing name: my express trains would skip stops, but that operation is quite different from your link's "skip-stop" as you say.

Personally I think "skip-stop" as described in your link wouldn't work too well in the DC metro since it has a far higher percentage of tourists as passengers who are not familiar with the system, combined with WMATA's legendarily bad communications skills and signage. Nothing wrong with giving it a try on the Red Line though, I hardly use that one.

Glad to see that you've caught up with the discussion. I understood perfectly what you were talking about, I was proposing another method of reducing trip times without spending money on infrastructure improvements.

Tourists can't properly ride the metro now, no reason to screw over those of us that ride the system twice a day for their convenience (particularly since it's the regular commuters that make up the vast majority of riders during the rush hour).

krtaylor wrote:...Personally I think "skip-stop" as described in your link wouldn't work too well in the DC metro since it has a far higher percentage of tourists as passengers who are not familiar with the system, combined with WMATA's legendarily bad communications skills and signage. Nothing wrong with giving it a try on the Red Line though, I hardly use that one.

Okay, so what did Metro do to you? Don't want to stray off topic, but I've noticed that you've taken cheap shots at the system in virtually every other post. I have my criticisms of the system (almost all related to management, rather than operations) but calling the system "corrupt and incompotent" and calling it's signage and communication "legendarily bad" I think is going a bit far.

Metro by far, has the best signage of any multi-line heavy rail system in this country, and imho is the easiest to ride. It actually amazes me that some tourists get lost. (How do they possibly get around in New York where even I, who have ridden NYCTA many times, can get confused once in a while?) The maps are very simple with 5 colors, and each station has a million huge, easy to read signs telling you every thing you could possibly need to know (line color, station name, subsequent stations, station hours etc), not to mention those impossible-to-miss pylons both on the exterior and interior of stations. As for communication skills, they're very good with that as well (to passengers anyway). Even when there's nothing to say you always here announcements over and over again in the stations. So maybe you can take it a little easier on them?