Why doesn't SEPTA use Concrete Ties

Everything I've read about concrete ties says that the life cycle cost is lower than wood ties, and stand up better to use and high speeds. Amtrak is using them on the Keystone Corridor and Northeast Corridor. So why doesn't SEPTA use them?

Probablly because their trains are too slow, and they're too cheap.

Also probably has to do with SEPTA not having installation equipment for concrete ties. Wood ties cost about $10-$20 less than concrete ties as well (per tie), are a quarter of the weight of concrete ties, and are faster to change out when broken.

This also begs the question of SEPTA not using plastic ties, which are gaining popularity; they outlast wood ties, are more durable, and can be installed using the same equipment as for wood ties...? Also, plastic and wood ties can be used together, whereas you cannot mix wood & concrete or plastic & concrete on the same track, generally.

I admit Septa has got to be very cheap but as someone pointed out we run the slowest trains in the country and we dont have the equipment to lay concrete ties. But irish not to get technical you can use wood and concrete ties together. On the northeast corridor most of the interlockings are still wood even though the rest of the railroad is concrete and having run on the corridor I also have noticed that if they replace a concrete tie because of a defect they will pull the concrete tie out and install a wooden one temporarily. Well everyone take care until next time....

If its a matter of not having equipment, why not just sub the work out to Amtrak, who does have the equipment. I would think this would make some sense, in that SEPTA would not have to purchase the equipment, and Amtrak's equipment would spend less time being idle, generating no return on investment. Granted, their equipment is probablly busy now with the Keystone upgrades, but after that project is done what does the equipment do? Just sit around?

jfrey40535 wrote:If its a matter of not having equipment, why not just sub the work out to Amtrak, who does have the equipment. I would think this would make some sense, in that SEPTA would not have to purchase the equipment, and Amtrak's equipment would spend less time being idle, generating no return on investment. Granted, their equipment is probablly busy now with the Keystone upgrades, but after that project is done what does the equipment do? Just sit around?

But you forget septa is not known for doing things the cheapest best and most efficeant way of doing things But on a real note I can only think of a few lines that would benifiet from them, like the R3 West Trenton, and between CC and glenside.

Yeah, I have to agree with Silverliner 266 on this one. Also, let us not forget that most of SEPTA's equipment cannot sustain speeds over 85mph without problems. Furthermore, the fastest maximum authorized speed on any of SEPTA owned territory is 79mph (R-1 Airport line). SEPTA doesn't really need concrete ties.

Concrete ties are not needed for operation in the 100-mph range. That is signal-dependent (per the ICC and FRA), assuming your rolling stock can roll at high speeds...

But what incentive does SEPTA have to lay concrete ties as opposed to the wooden ties? SEPTA is making 'improvements' to their mainline as we speak, and the track speeds are the same as they were, and in some cases slower. At least Amtrak has some justifications for concrete ties. You'll notice that the concrete ties stop exactly short of the Amtrak/SEPTA track limits where applicable, and also on Amtrak owned tracks that only SEPTA uses, such as the 36th tunnel tracks that connect the Eastern limits of Zoo to the NEC, or 4 and 5 track within Phil interlocking. Look at the poor ride quality between Arsenal and the connection to the R-1 Airport line on Amtrak owned 4 and 5 tracks, while 2 and 3 tracks are used concrete leaving lower level Penn.

OK. Thanks everyone. I'm concluding that the reason is the higher initial costs for concrete ties.

I guess we could say that Septa uses some concrete ties...well, sort of. The ties in the CC commuter tunnel between the eastern limits of Suburban station and the Reading side portal have concrete pads with a steel crossbar, except at the interlockings. I know that doesn't fit with what was asked but I figured it bears mentioning.

glennk419 wrote:I guess we could say that Septa uses some concrete ties...well, sort of. The ties in the CC commuter tunnel between the eastern limits of Suburban station and the Reading side portal have concrete pads with a steel crossbar, except at the interlockings. I know that doesn't fit with what was asked but I figured it bears mentioning.

Kind of reminds me of how the subway ties look.