• Whither Housatonic (HRRC) Railroad? (no TIGER for HRRC)

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

Moderators: MEC407, NHN503

  by lirrelectrician
 
Hello all,
Speaking of the P&W and HRRC, didnt the P&W file an "adverse abandonment" with the STB on the HRRC when they took the Maybrook out of service. I was just wondering what ever happened to that. It is also of my opionion that if someone were to take over the HRRC , it should be the P&W as they run into the area anyway. They could just add another interchange with CSX at Pittfield and route all traffic to CT there instead of Worcester.
Just my two cents
Enjoy the weekend

Mike Scholz - LIRR electrcian
.
  by DutchRailnut
 
HRRC is private owned, I do not believe John Hanlon will sell, unless forced or unless he gets offer he can not refuse.
both hinge on how much is his railroad worth, P&W would not be will to pay current price, Yet the price will lower so when will John be willing to sell ??
as for STB action , I believe that is currently oin hold.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
lirrelectrician wrote:Hello all,
Speaking of the P&W and HRRC, didnt the P&W file an "adverse abandonment" with the STB on the HRRC when they took the Maybrook out of service. I was just wondering what ever happened to that. It is also of my opionion that if someone were to take over the HRRC , it should be the P&W as they run into the area anyway. They could just add another interchange with CSX at Pittfield and route all traffic to CT there instead of Worcester.
Just my two cents
Enjoy the weekend

Mike Scholz - LIRR electrcian
.
Here's the thread on that: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 8&p=950213.

They withdrew the adverse abandonment when some sort of resolution was brokered with the state to get some schedule windows on MNRR that lined up well enough with their customers' shipping hours (I think the overhead replacement project may have been the additional schedule strain that was a threat to their business). And secured some assurances from HRCC that the track will be fixed. They did not want to go nth degree on it with a hostile takeover of outright ownership...they wanted either the owners to take care of their track or the state to take the track from the owners so they could deal with some sane party on the fixes. The filing was a purely the stern warning shot that they weren't going to put up with the status quo much longer.

Obviously the New Haven Line is a tight schedule restraint for them that's not going to get any better in the future, so the Maybrook is their much-preferred route being limited to only the short New Haven-Devon jog. And it theoretically gives them a 286K backbone cross-state with the P&W main being every-other-car 286K rated (and a priority upgrade), the Shoreline being full 286K rated, the Maybrook being 286K if it were in operable state, and only a short and largely bridge-free New Haven-Derby segment of Metro North being stuck at 263K (as opposed to the run via Norwalk which crosses 3 or 4 of the movable bridges). While the latter is nobody's current priority to uprate, at least it's a tangible and fundable one should business conditions warrant...as opposed to west of there where extreme cost will prevent it from happening in this lifetime, if ever.

Nothing whatsoever has happened on the HRCC end yet, so this can't persist forever without P&W re-filing. I can't see them shooting for a takeover. What it'll come down to is trying to force the state's hand to secure public ownership of the Maybrook to Danbury so they don't have to put up with this crap anymore, and continuing to use it for overhead rights shared with some other carrier. It's a little beyond the scope of their expansion dreams to purchase that much of a fixer-upper. And they just want reliable Maybrook access so they can work their Danbury Branch business top-down more flexibly than bottom-up. The mess on the Berkshire is not their problem and of course there's zilch west of Danbury on the Maybrook/Beacon so that's a nonentity.
  by Backshophoss
 
Sooner or later,ConnDOT with the help of ConnDEC,will find a way to "force" repairs to the Maybrook route or "force" the sale of the route
to the state. The Maybrook route is the "Safety Valve" for MNR since it connects to all 3 lines and 2 branches,allowing for equipment moves
between all lines. The Maybrook route was the heavy freight main for New Haven untill the PC merger and bridge fire.
While HRRC might "Self Distruct", BSRM,along with DRM are now "Hostages" to the mess.
How are the current customers along HRRC's routes holding up?

Best Bet would be a "Directed Service Order" from the STB to allow a P+W "takeover"
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Backshophoss wrote:Sooner or later,ConnDOT with the help of ConnDEC,will find a way to "force" repairs to the Maybrook route or "force" the sale of the route
to the state. The Maybrook route is the "Safety Valve" for MNR since it connects to all 3 lines and 2 branches,allowing for equipment moves
between all lines. The Maybrook route was the heavy freight main for New Haven untill the PC merger and bridge fire.
While HRRC might "Self Distruct", BSRM,along with DRM are now "Hostages" to the mess.
How are the current customers along HRRC's routes holding up?

Best Bet would be a "Directed Service Order" from the STB to allow a P+W "takeover"
State would definitely be interested in taking the remaining private-owned trackage under public ownership. They want the Berkshire from Danbury to New Milford as a commuter rail hold for a Danbury Branch extension, and they already own the rest of the Berkshire to the MA border. The Maybrook from Derby-Danbury is obviously a potentially nuclear situation if P&W gets fed up again. Since there is an operator today who wants to use it and use it well that's a justifiable expense. And Maybrook west of there to the state line is a little less than 5 miles and as mentioned an MNRR safety valve that connects with contiguous public ownership in NY.

I doubt the public takeover of ownership is going to be that big a deal if HRCC is broke. All 3 of the privately-owned segments have well-justifiable upside for CDOT, and they've been very aggressive over the years at locking up every ROW that comes available. HRCC's asking price is likely going to be laughable until the cat's out of the bag that they're insolvent and going under. But the money would absolutely appear overnight if they could gain control of that trackage. The messy part is if HRCC goes belly-up, and what kind of bath the taxpayers are going to take so the state can fix up the line just enough to make it palatable for a new operator. P&W just doesn't have obvious justification for interest in the Berkshire. And some plucky operation like CNZR is going to need more investors to be able to swallow that much new trackage, although they've done such a good job reviving business on the Armory and Griffin with meager resources that they'd absolutely be able to do some nice things developing a line like that. But there's not a lot of good answers here. If $165M is the repair baseline for providing good freight service in Western CT, there's no way a private carrier is going to front even half of HRCC's maint hole. The state has to take that hit, and it will be ugly.


I think there's some dominoes yet to fall, and the intriguing player to watch is RailAmerica with CSO. It's the worst-kept secret in the world how much they covet PAS's sorely underutilized Highland Line and Plainville/Waterbury yards. They're clearly in a substantial expansion mindset with that spiffy new engine facility in Hartford. They have corporate synergies with NECR if the Conn River Line upgrades and potential 286K'ing of the Springfield Line to Hartford Yard set up a high-volume pass-through where PAS can shuttle goods to them from NECR. And it's a burning question why PAS is bothering to hold on to the Highland when it's only served once a week and is the single biggest outlier in PAS territory to the Class I partnership's business model. IF CSO were to gain control down to Derby, then this starts getting a little interesting. Would they then be interested in the Berkshire and Maybrook (to Danbury...I just can't see any freight ever using the Beacon again), and acquiring themselves a contiguous V-shaped circuit across Western and Central CT with CSX exchanges on either end. Especially if that's a 286K line they'd be going after. Maybe. They're in "coopetition" with P&W, both on the partnership side with the Canadian Gateway alignment and on the competition side with expansion. Long-term I'm sure the two RA carriers would love to achieve coverage parity with P&W in CT, because that would bottle them up from encroachment elsewhere. And no doubt the state prefers working with RA and P&W over others based on their existing working relationships.

But that's still jumping a couple moves ahead of ourselves. Both RA and P&W are preoccupied with mainline upgrades first, nobody yet knows what PAS's long-term plan is going to be for CT, and who knows if HRCC is going to implode tomorrow sooner than anyone else would be able to act. Best case scenario is probably that they can cut out the crazy and hold on for just a few more years until the other wheelings and dealings among in-state carriers has settled out and the other carriers can act on some territorial expansion opportunities. Maybe sell the lines to the state for some repair collateral...at a sane asking price.

But outward signs are not looking good that this is going to be a drama-free short-term future or that, if the end comes for HRCC, it's not going to be a radioactive mess burning the state badly on the salvage job. This has the smell of an "any moment now" implosion. Either that or the execs' behavior is taking on the characteristics of some elaborate "Weekend at Bernie's" act on the PR end to buy themselves some time to pull their personal holdings out of the business and try to find some sucker to give them a cash infusion before the jig is up.
  by DutchRailnut
 
as for CDOT don't expect them to be big player in this, they had their chance on ownership when Conrail sold.
But now they can not excersise Eminent domain because they showed no earlier interest.
  by boatsmate
 
another name to through in here is Delli (G&U, CCC, and now Davisville), he could be waiting for the right time to come in and swoop up the lines..... he seems the type that might want to try something like that. Just a thought......
  by Backshophoss
 
What is the current track condition status of HRRC right now?? If it is class 1 "excepted",any kind of "Haz-Mat" or "messy" property damage
derailment might create the "self destruction".
Is Kimberly/Clark still active in New Milford? There was talk of a "Mothballing"of the plant years back.
Commuter service by MNR makes sense to New Milford.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Backshophoss wrote:What is the current track condition status of HRRC right now?? If it is class 1 "excepted",any kind of "Haz-Mat" or "messy" property damage
derailment might create the "self destruction".
Is Kimberly/Clark still active in New Milford? There was talk of a "Mothballing"of the plant years back.
Commuter service by MNR makes sense to New Milford.
CT State Rail Plan lists the Berkshire as Class 1 and Class 2 in various parts, and the Maybrook as Class 1. No excepted trackage anywhere that would ban certain types of freight. And it is all rated at 286K weight.

Now, I don't know if the "official" ratings correspond well to actual current conditions because these are FRA classes. That's how a basically inoperable line like the Maybrook can still be Class 1/286K. HRCC would either have to file notice for maintaining at a lower track class or the FRA would have to flunk them down a level. It's not clear how often the FRA does a recertification that would deduct a track class involuntarily from an operator unwilling to maintain at that standard. All I can guess is that HRCC is at-risk in the long term of a demotion on both their track class and their weight limit if they don't do something about their immense maintenance hole.


Commuter rail to New Milford is most definitely a sought-after extension by CDOT. Not a railfan fantasy either...it has a good chance of happening in the 10-15 year timeframe because Route 7 is just that bad and this extension wouldn't be a cost backbreaker for the relief it would provide. Big and ongoing Danbury Branch study by the state outlines the options: http://www.danburybranchstudy.com/. I guess the question is more a matter of which comes first: 1) re-electrifying to Danbury, or 2) diesel to New Milford.
  by Jeff Smith
 
Since HRRC is privately-owned, it's more difficult to get a picture of their financial state. However, if they reach a certain employment threshold (50?) they're subject to Sarbanes-Oxley reporting, I believe.

Does FRA have any kind of financial oversight? For instance, if they were to look at the books and determine that financial constraints are causing unsafe operations, can they revoke or restrict operation? For that matter, since CT and MA own some portions of their ROW, can they audit and revoke overhead rights? Sounds to me like they'd have a cause of action.
  by Backshophoss
 
Route 7 cannot be expanded on,you would wind up destroying the towns/villages along the route.
F-Line,Diesel service to New Milford 1st,forget about wire to Danbury,it was the 1st branch to lose it.
Not cost effective to replace at current service levels. Not sure if the signal system abuilding on the branch would work with 12.5 kv/60hz overhead unless it
followed what was done on the New Haven Line

It might be time for ConnDOT to audit the books and see what the state's $$$ was spent on.
Should be interesting.
  by Ridgefielder
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:
Backshophoss wrote:What is the current track condition status of HRRC right now?? If it is class 1 "excepted",any kind of "Haz-Mat" or "messy" property damage
derailment might create the "self destruction".
Is Kimberly/Clark still active in New Milford? There was talk of a "Mothballing"of the plant years back.
Commuter service by MNR makes sense to New Milford.
CT State Rail Plan lists the Berkshire as Class 1 and Class 2 in various parts, and the Maybrook as Class 1. No excepted trackage anywhere that would ban certain types of freight. And it is all rated at 286K weight.

Now, I don't know if the "official" ratings correspond well to actual current conditions because these are FRA classes. That's how a basically inoperable line like the Maybrook can still be Class 1/286K. HRCC would either have to file notice for maintaining at a lower track class or the FRA would have to flunk them down a level. It's not clear how often the FRA does a recertification that would deduct a track class involuntarily from an operator unwilling to maintain at that standard. All I can guess is that HRCC is at-risk in the long term of a demotion on both their track class and their weight limit if they don't do something about their immense maintenance hole.


Commuter rail to New Milford is most definitely a sought-after extension by CDOT. Not a railfan fantasy either...it has a good chance of happening in the 10-15 year timeframe because Route 7 is just that bad and this extension wouldn't be a cost backbreaker for the relief it would provide. Big and ongoing Danbury Branch study by the state outlines the options: http://www.danburybranchstudy.com/. I guess the question is more a matter of which comes first: 1) re-electrifying to Danbury, or 2) diesel to New Milford.
Wire isn't coming back to the Danbury, ever, unless MNRR decides to pull a SEPTA and go 100% electric. Only reason it was wired in the first place back in the 1920's was to move the engine change point for NY-Pittsfield through service from Stamford to Danbury.

Can't speak to actual conditions, but I can tell you that from the end of MNRR in Danbury north, the track *looks* in rough shape-- weedgrown ballast, and rails visibly kinked.
  by Otto Vondrak
 
Let's see, no money from Massachusetts or Connecticut, no money from the Fed, they are running out of folks to bamboozle for cash...
  by DutchRailnut
 
betya Collin Peace will announce that FRA can no longer travel on HRRC rails ;-)