VRE refusing snow refunds?

After VRE canceled service for 4 of 19 scheduled days last month, I asked VRE whether those who had bought tickets would get refunds. I have not received a reply. (I bought a monthly ticket and then had to drive to work while paying for non-existent VRE service.) My column about this that appeared in the Fredericksburg newspaper is online here: http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/ ... 010/530306

A few days ago I got an email from a passenger who bought a five-day ticket, some of which were days on which VRE canceled all service. He didn't want his name used, but he said that VRE would not refund any of the ticket price.

Is this happening to anybody else?

Are there any laws requiring transportation companies to refund passengers' money if service they paid for is canceled?

It never even occurred to me to ask for a refund. I bought a pass for a month, and rode for a month. Your monthly pass isn't cheaper in February than it was in January because the month was shorter, was it?

Before writing about "VRE should have", you should do some more research on the track conditions in VRE's service area (hint: the RF&P was completely impassible, Amtrak and freights weren't running either).

HokieNav wrote:It never even occurred to me to ask for a refund. I bought a pass for a month, and rode for a month. Your monthly pass isn't cheaper in February than it was in January because the month was shorter, was it?

Before writing about "VRE should have", you should do some more research on the track conditions in VRE's service area (hint: the RF&P was completely impassible, Amtrak and freights weren't running either).

You have a valid point for a pass over a long period of time, like a month in your example; but I'm going to side with the abandoned passenger for a 5 day pass - when 4 days the VRE ran no trains.

Not in my mind, either the pax bought the ticket just before the storm and really should have looked at a weather forecast and said "Maybe this isn't the greatest idea", or bought the weekly ticket way in advance and assumed the risk for whatever happened in the intervening period of time.

In either case, caveat emptor, my friend.

HokieNav, you can find out the monthly fares at http://www.vre.org/service/fares.htm.

I mentioned that I learned of disruptions to the railroad, so your comment about doing research is off. I communicated with two people at VRE before writing, and the point is that even once VRE could run trains, it may have chosen not to, and that it still has an obligation to people to whom it sold tickets.

From your research, did you conclude that VRE could not have run any trains on Thursday, Feb. 11? And VRE implied that if the federal government had stayed closed on Friday, Feb. 12, it would not have run trains because it could not afford to. Yet according to the VRE passenger survey, two-thirds of its passengers buy monthly tickets, so VRE had already received the money from those people whether or not the federal employees went to work.

If you are content to pay for train service and then drive to work because the trains don't run, then you don't have a complaint with VRE. But selling tickets for train service implies that there will be trains running. Why should passengers buy tickets if they don't know whether they will have to pay for car commuting as well? The American Public Transportation Association says that riding transit saves people money. But not if riders have to pay for trains that aren't running and then spend money driving to work. "Buyer, beware: these trains might not run when you need them"? If VRE wants people to ride the train instead of driving (that's its mission), it needs to do better than that.

Literalman wrote:HokieNav, you can find out the monthly fares at http://www.vre.org/service/fares.htm.

You miss the point, I don't need to look to know that you pay the same each month regardless of the number of days in the month.

From your research, did you conclude that VRE could not have run any trains on Thursday, Feb. 11?

Yes. Amtrak canceled the Auto Train and Palmetto routes and annulled the two Silver trains and the Carolinian north of Raleigh on Thursday the 11th. Friday the 12th was a repeat of Thursday except for the fact that the Carolinian made it through to New York, so while things were better on Friday, the tracks certainly weren't back to full operation. Your assertion that VRE could have run trains and chose not to is false. IF the Feds had closed on Friday and IF VRE had decided not to operate, then you may have had a leg to stand on for Friday.

If you are content to pay for train service and then drive to work because the trains don't run, then you don't have a complaint with VRE. But selling tickets for train service implies that there will be trains running. Why should passengers buy tickets if they don't know whether they will have to pay for car commuting as well? The American Public Transportation Association says that riding transit saves people money. But not if riders have to pay for trains that aren't running and then spend money driving to work. "Buyer, beware: these trains might not run when you need them"? If VRE wants people to ride the train instead of driving (that's its mission), it needs to do better than that.

I'd like to see how you would have VRE "do better than that" given the conditions in the area during that time period. Rather than the "I'm entitled to x, and I'm going to get it." attitude, I understand that sometimes things happen. Having a monthly pass allows me to ride as much or as little as I care to for a specific month. Sometimes it works out great and I ride the train multiple times a day every day and really get my money worth, other times things happen outside my control (be it snow, derailments, illness or unexpected travel for work) that keep me off the train. Just as I wouldn't expect MARC to charge me more the month that I "overutilize" the service, I don't expect a refund on the months that I "underutilize" the service.

My 2 cents:

VRE really shouldn't be entitled to refund tickets for service disruptions beyond their control. Unless VRE was out of service for more than say half a month, I don't think they should offer any refunds. As for the passenger who didn't get to ride 4 of the 5 days on his ticket, I'll agree with electricon (a very rare event ). I do think he probably should get a partial refund, but that's at VRE's disgression.

To tell the truth this topic was a little surprising, given what I consider to be very good customer service on the part of VRE. In my experience VRE has far greater customer service than most commuter rail or other transit services in the country, probably mostly due to relatively it's small size and independence from a bureaucratic, multimodal transit agency like Maryland's MTA. In regular service VRE actually gives out free ride coupons if a train is more than 30 min late (iirc), and will even pay extra expenses for daycare if your train is very late. If you asked someone at the NJ Transit or MARC for any of these things, they'd probably laugh at you. VRE also provides monthly newsletters (something MARC stopped over a year ago), monthly online chats, and even consist information. IMHO VRE does far more than expected in terms of customer service. As the service grows customer service may inevitably decline (which is pretty much the rule for any organization public or private), but maybe the "Southern Hospitality" that distinguishes VRE from other commuter rail services including MARC will keep it on the right path.

For some perspective, let me share an incident that happened to me last fall in regarding customer service at Amtrak (and MARC). At Union Station I went to the main desk to purchase a monthly ticket (I had to buy it there since I get a discount I don't receive with the machines). I told the lady at the desk a monthly between Germantown and College Park, but instead she put in Camden station and charged it to my card. The price difference was about $60. Now instead of simply refunding my ticket and switiching it to the right one, they could only refund 75% of the $191 since I had purchased it two or three days into the month (100% refunding is only available prior to the month). Obviously I hadn't travelled on the ticket yet (and 25% of the month hadn't passed) and it was 101% her screwup, the system wouldn't let her change the ticket. So I was told to simply absorb the ~$60 and act like nothing happened. Needless to say I got pretty pissed and starting arguing for the next 15min until the manager came out and finally said she would mail the receipt with an explanation to the Amtrak ticketing office in Philly so I could get my refund. Not surprisingly 4 months have passed since then and have I haven't received a dime, and don't expect too...

See that's poor customer service. Not refunding a few days off of a monthly because Mother Nature wallops the area is entirely understandable. As HokieNav pointed out the month to month cost-per-day varies anyway. A month with no holidays and 31 days, probably cost less (/day) than Feb service anyway. Also you make some pretty unrealistic points in your column. How could Metro and bus service possibly operate with that much snow on the ground? Basically every transit service from Philadelphia to NoVa was shut down. Many roads in NoVa weren't even clear until the end of that week.

This question was asked during the last online forum. Basically the CEO (Dale) made a good point regarding refunds for monthly tickets, the same point as was brought up here: You buy a monthly ticket and sometimes you don't utilize it as much as other times. The cutout for a full refund on a monthly ticket is 14 days. After that point it's no refunds, period. VRE operated 15 days in February. So...they are under no obligation to refund a monthly ticket.

realtype wrote: For some perspective, let me share an incident that happened to me last fall in regarding customer service at Amtrak (and MARC). At Union Station I went to the main desk to purchase a monthly ticket (I had to buy it there since I get a discount I don't receive with the machines). I told the lady at the desk a monthly between Germantown and College Park, but instead she put in Camden station and charged it to my card. The price difference was about $60. Now instead of simply refunding my ticket and switiching it to the right one, they could only refund 75% of the $191 since I had purchased it two or three days into the month (100% refunding is only available prior to the month). Obviously I hadn't travelled on the ticket yet (and 25% of the month hadn't passed) and it was 101% her screwup, the system wouldn't let her change the ticket. So I was told to simply absorb the ~$60 and act like nothing happened. Needless to say I got pretty pissed and starting arguing for the next 15min until the manager came out and finally said she would mail the receipt with an explanation to the Amtrak ticketing office in Philly so I could get my refund. Not surprisingly 4 months have passed since then and have I haven't received a dime, and don't expect too...

See that's poor customer service. Not refunding a few days off of a monthly because Mother Nature wallops the area is entirely understandable. As HokieNav pointed out the month to month cost-per-day varies anyway. A month with no holidays and 31 days, probably cost less (/day) than Feb service anyway. Also you make some pretty unrealistic points in your column. How could Metro and bus service possibly operate with that much snow on the ground? Basically every transit service from Philadelphia to NoVa was shut down. Many roads in NoVa weren't even clear until the end of that week.

Challenge this fine with your CC company to get a refund, chances are MARC and Amtrak will know that they are wrong and not reply to the CC company you will end up winning the disputer default. I once had a very bad experience camping with the Connecticut Department of Environmental Protection and challenged it with the CC company after it we went a few weeks without any response from the DEP. We ended up winning in default because the DEP never responded to the CC company's complaint letter.


As for the "snow refunds" issue I think that VRE is obligated to give you a refund because they are considered a common carrier and should assume liability, however they are not going to give it out willingly because they know if they give a hard enough time people will not peruse it .

Darien Red Sox wrote:As for the "snow refunds" issue I think that VRE is obligated to give you a refund because they are considered a common carrier and should assume liability, however they are not going to give it out willingly because they know if they give a hard enough time people will not peruse it .

Can you expound on this a little more? I'm honestly not sure what you mean by their common carrier status means that they are not liable because it's an act of nature.

Interesting that the OP hasn't found his way back after showing him that it was in fact impossible for VRE to operate when he claimed it was possible.

HokieNav wrote:

Darien Red Sox wrote:As for the "snow refunds" issue I think that VRE is obligated to give you a refund because they are considered a common carrier and should assume liability, however they are not going to give it out willingly because they know if they give a hard enough time people will not peruse it .

Can you expound on this a little more? I'm honestly not sure what you mean by their common carrier status means that they are not liable because it's an act of nature.

Interesting that the OP hasn't found his way back after showing him that it was in fact impossible for VRE to operate when he claimed it was possible.

The common carrier rules are applied to any carrier who operates on a schedule and states that they must assume absolute liability for delays or damage to property. The "Act of God" excuse can only be used once the first time something like that happens (ex. first snow storm ever in VA) after that the carrier should assume something like that will happen and be prepared for it. Airlines have somehow exempt themselves from this, however they are still required to get you from point A to point B in a reasonable amount of time.
I know the common trick played in business is to withhold customer refunds until things get harry and there is risk of a lawsuit. I once had this one web services company who refused to grant me a $10 refund under there 30 day guarantee, it took me 3 moths of fighting with them until I told them my lawyer advised me to peruse it in court, with in 2 days the money was credited to my credit card.
I don't know how these rules though will apply to VRE because they are a government entity.