Viewliner II Delivery/Production

JoeG wrote:Obviously the current generation of sleepers have some problems. But I'm sorry they took the simpler solution of removing the toilets from the rooms. You would think they could design a freeze proof system by now. I value having the facilities in my room, where I don't have to get at least partially dressed to use them. As we age the frequency of bathroom calls increases.

I'm with you on liking them IN the room, but apparently the public feedback was negative. It wasn't just a matter of solving the freezing pipe issue.

JoeG wrote:I value having the facilities in my room, where I don't
have to get at least partially dressed to use them. As we
age, the frequency of bathroom calls increases.

The humble but honorable chamber pot can help greatly.
I worry about falling in the middle of the night. Using
a large plastic bottle with its own handle and lid (once
used for selling salsa LOL), I have my very own bedside
retaining tank for most calls. Mornings I can empty it,
rinse well with liquid soap or shampoo, let drain, place it
in a plastic bag in my suitcase, and go about my business.

Excuse my manners for so bluntly discussing such medical
matters here.

Woody,

It is what it is. Companies that seek to provide accomodations have to take these kinds of things into consideration in their designs. That being said I think Amtrak simply found it too complicated to provide toilet facilities in each room when regulations required the use of retention tanks. I think, generally, that this was a smart move on their part. Most people will find a way to work with it and the problems associated with malfunctions won't affect the living quarters. That seems very smart to me. The fact that the design simplifies things, lowers costs and lessens the potential for issues associated with freezing is even more intelligent.

I think folks here are overlooking the obvious problem with Viewliner toilets. Sanitary issues aside, they are a nice convenience when traveling alone, but they are an awkward problem when traveling with someone else.

The Viewliner roomettes are really for one person although they can in a pinch squeeze in two. The bedrooms have a separate toilet/shower compartment.
To me, eliminating room toilets for roomettes and toilet/showers in bedrooms is a diminishment of service. I am dubious of the claim that the public didn't want them. (Was that public actual Amtrak sleeping-car riders? How was the question posed? etc.)
But that's what we're getting. I'll just have to deal with it. And, there aren't going to be any chamber pots in my future.

To be honest, I found the in-the-roomette toilet to be a bit small for my frame when I rode the LSL last spring, and while I may weigh more than my doctor would like I am hardly in "you have to buy two seats to fly on the plane" territory. Plus, the fact that you had to handle the equipment to switch from toilet to sink before you could wash your hands was somewhat off-putting. While I'll admit I didn't actually travel overnight and so didn't hit the morning rush to get clean before Chicago, I think I'd be just as happy with the restroom down the hall.

JoeG wrote:The Viewliner roomettes are really for one person although they can in a pinch squeeze in two. The bedrooms have a separate toilet/shower compartment.
To me, eliminating room toilets for roomettes and toilet/showers in bedrooms is a diminishment of service. I am dubious of the claim that the public didn't want them. (Was that public actual Amtrak sleeping-car riders? How was the question posed? etc.)
But that's what we're getting. I'll just have to deal with it. And, there aren't going to be any chamber pots in my future.

They are not loosing the bedroom bathrooms and showers those will still be there, there just wont be toilets in roomettes.

Fixing a freezing pipe issue is not easy. The pipes have to be below, they cant be above. They need to be somewhere that if something DOES happen the pipes can be cut, replaced etc without major teardown of the car. Undercarriage is a perfect place. All of the pipes are wrapped in insulation and have electric heat trace to keep them warm and from freezing. The only problem is these components do not last forever. They also can not always battle freezing rain and snow consistently for hours at 80mph track speeds. A good example of this is the amfleet door pocket heaters and trap heaters. Yea they have them, yea they do work well but a train at 125mph with a failed door airseal lets in A LOT of snow, which fills the door pocket and will freeze the door closed.

ApproachMedium wrote: They are not loosing the bedroom bathrooms and showers those will still be there, there just wont be toilets in roomettes.

And further, this has been SOP in superliner roomettes since day one. I travel in them and this doesn't bug me at all, in fact I prefer it.

ApproachMedium wrote: A good example of this is the amfleet door pocket heaters and trap heaters. Yea they have them, yea they do work well but a train at 125mph with a failed door airseal lets in A LOT of snow, which fills the door pocket and will freeze the door closed.

Well said. This is why the Horizon cars get pulled from the Pere Marquette in winter, because the entire route is in the lake effect snow belt. It's also why Via mandated that Amtrak retrofit swinging doors to the Horizons used on the International (as explained to me by a Via conductor).

ApproachMedium wrote:

JoeG wrote:The Viewliner roomettes are really for one person although they can in a pinch squeeze in two. The bedrooms have a separate toilet/shower compartment.
To me, eliminating room toilets for roomettes and toilet/showers in bedrooms is a diminishment of service. I am dubious of the claim that the public didn't want them. (Was that public actual Amtrak sleeping-car riders? How was the question posed? etc.)
But that's what we're getting. I'll just have to deal with it. And, there aren't going to be any chamber pots in my future.

They are not loosing the bedroom bathrooms and showers those will still be there, there just wont be toilets in roomettes.

Fixing a freezing pipe issue is not easy. The pipes have to be below, they cant be above. They need to be somewhere that if something DOES happen the pipes can be cut, replaced etc without major teardown of the car. Undercarriage is a perfect place. All of the pipes are wrapped in insulation and have electric heat trace to keep them warm and from freezing. The only problem is these components do not last forever. They also can not always battle freezing rain and snow consistently for hours at 80mph track speeds. A good example of this is the amfleet door pocket heaters and trap heaters. Yea they have them, yea they do work well but a train at 125mph with a failed door airseal lets in A LOT of snow, which fills the door pocket and will freeze the door closed.

this forms the crux of my bottom line as people buff out over potential orders and uses for new equipment. It isn't enough for Congress to provide money for ordering new equipment if they don't provide enough money to maintain it once it is on the property.

ThirdRail7 wrote:It isn't enough for Congress to provide money for ordering new equipment if they don't provide enough money to maintain it once it is on the property.

Although I certainly don't have direct knowledge of financials I am hopeful that the improvements to cash flow from lower maintenance costs and improved revenues will allow Amtrak to better maintain the new equipment.

gokeefe wrote:Although I certainly don't have direct knowledge of financials I am hopeful that the improvements to cash flow from lower maintenance costs and improved revenues will allow Amtrak to better maintain the new equipment.

Which would be great if Amtrak actually gave any savings to maintain the equipment. Somehow, I think Amtrak would do with those savings what it does now with its subsidies, use those savings to lower fares.

electricron wrote:

gokeefe wrote:Although I certainly don't have direct knowledge of financials I am hopeful that the improvements to cash flow from lower maintenance costs and improved revenues will allow Amtrak to better maintain the new equipment.

Which would be great if Amtrak actually gave any savings to maintain the equipment. Somehow, I think Amtrak would do with those savings what it does now with its subsidies, use those savings to lower fares.

If this was true in the past I'm not so sure that is true anymore. Recent reports from Amtrak (Monthly/Annual) have indicated that their savings are being used for small capital projects that they would otherwise not be able to fund themselves. I think there is every reason to believe that they are using extra cash on hand to fund further projects that create additional savings. That is a virtuous upward spiral which in combination with rising ridership makes for a very good outlook.

electricron wrote:

gokeefe wrote:Although I certainly don't have direct knowledge of financials I am hopeful that the improvements to cash flow from lower maintenance costs and improved revenues will allow Amtrak to better maintain the new equipment.

Which would be great if Amtrak actually gave any savings to maintain the equipment. Somehow, I think Amtrak would do with those savings what it does now with its subsidies, use those savings to lower fares.

What evidence is there that this is the case?

Small evidence that you dont always see day to day. One of them is the air cleaner systems they put in the cars. That system makes for clean smelling cars on long distance routes. Cleaner smelling cars are happy passengers, happy passengers return to ride again. A more notable and dollar saving item would be the installation of electric hand dryers in bathrooms on trains. This saves TONS on wasted paper towels, trash production (they pay to have trash hauled away) and the need to more frequently restock them. All the little things add up. You often can catch these kinds of notes being put out in the Amtrak Ink newsletter.

As ApproachMedium mentioned Amtrak Ink, the monthly or annual reports and also the Fleet Strategy Plan. All of these places discuss diversion of savings or additional revenues into capital improvements. In general they're very bottom line focused right now but they do it using an investement based approach which then ensures that overall cash continues to grow. I like it as a strategy because this mindset will support growth over the long term.

Depending on cost they might be able to self-fund refurbishment of the Viewliner I fleet.