VIA complete trainset in the US?

While I am certainly not suggesting that Amtrak is even considering such a move I have to ask, more to learn than to suggest. However, it would be nice to have actual answers instead of rhetoric.

As I understand the current VIA operation the high season for the Canadian is during the summer, leaving most of the equipment idle during the winter and to some extent the attendant positions are seasonal as well. Can this equipment be operated in the United States from a regulatory standpoint? I cannot see any issues with the actual structure of the car, including the windows, or the fire protection, but since they were out of the country I think the ADA and structural crashworthiness provisions, as interpreted, may prevent them from reentering service here on anything other than a tourist line or as a historic car. That being said, as long as they were operated with other ADA accessible equipment there seems to be a logical out should someone want to advocate for it, and get the pre-approval from the justice department. I also understand that the HEP as implemented in Canada might require a slightly different setup and that retention tanks for septic waste have been added to a portion of the fleet.

So could a group charter equipment from VIA out of the Toronto base and conduct a US run under Amtrak’s operating authority on a route out of Chicago perhaps even with the VIA attendant’s in place? I can see the very likely possibility of the following problems.

1. US operating unions taking a dim view of this, even though it is a seasonal operation.
2. The emergency training for the crews will more that likely be different as there are different regulatory authorities.

The above being the case could a historical group, charter the cars for operation here in the US? Could the CZ be recreated out of Chicago?

I think it's highly unlikely, at best. However, I wonder if VIA might be interested in some of Amtrak's equipment. If Amtrak is planning to replace the Heritage diner fleet with Amtube cafes, perhaps VIA might purchase some of the diners (particularly the very nice Temoinsa rebuilds).

Transport Canada and the USDOT/FRA standards for passenger cars are the same far as I know, so providing that, its possible.

Though I just took did a Google Search for VIA's standard for HEP voltage and its also 480 volts. Another google search shows that the "stainless steel cars" used with "The Canadian" have been made accessable in the early 1990s.

Also, VIA's equipment though for "The Canadian" is cleary marked VIA and has a Canadian flag on it.

While I can't imagine this happening, I don't think there's anything operational to prevent it. The equipment is Budd-built, and AFAIK is functionally and structurally identical to US equipment

About 20% of Via's stainless Budd cars were ex-DRGW and other Americans, from when Amtrak rationalized it's fleet about ten years ago. Operationally, those cars started off here, and likely could continue here. However, I can't imagine Via giving Amtrak free reign with their beautiful trains after seeing how filthy many Amtrak trains are. Even if no permanent damage is done, I wouldn't want my pretty trainsets getting smudged up like that.

I think, but this is rather anecdotal, That CP Budd equipment, has been interchanged to US roads. The likely train on which this was done was the Chi-Vancouver through cars interchanged between the CP and Soo at Portal ND. The Soo's train was named the Soo Pacific and the CP's The Dominion (how's that for a "PI" train name?) .

This one I admit is not in my library of "been there done thats", but it was for a teacher (we called 'em Masters) circa 1956 who told me about his summer journey on that train.

CP lightweight, but not stainless, was regularly interchanged with the D&H as part of the Montreal Ltd. CN equipment was part of the Montrealer and Ambassador consists and interchanged with the CV-B&M-NH-PRR.

Meanwhile fast forward to present day; I highly doubt if any US road would accept an interchange of VIA's "off the shelf' European "Renaissance" equipment.

Hi Gilbert, the Soo-Pacific was a pre WWI Chicago-Portland service via Crowsnest Pass. In our time The Mountaineer was the separate Chicago-Vancouver summer service and in the winter it ran as the Soo-Dominion, merging at Moose Jaw.

They ran with a lightweight coach, heavyweight CPR and Pullman sleepers and a heavyweight solarium. The mainline Dominion had the Budd cafe-dome and Park observation cars while the separate Mountaineer had open observation cars, including the 3 that are still in excursion service today (rode 598 on the Whisler Mountaineer 6 weeks ago, Oct 2006 link 2nd shot).

Because of the mixed heavyweight cars the Soo service was not an overly photogenic train so they actually deadheaded a 7 lightweight + 5 heavyweight train set from Montreal to Field in 1952 just get suitable advertising pictures. The trip unfortunately had an attack of Murphy’s Law and all the colour shots were lost.

The one place the Budd equipment did regularly run through the US was on the Atlantic Limited between Montreal and St John via northern Maine. For a short while the stainless was even dusted by coal smoke! As that service ran until 1994 there are unlikely to be any rules problems with running the cars in the US again. For HEP compatibility this site discusses some details of the various systems, it appears they are close enough to be useable.

Bill

About 1976, "Trains" magazine ran an article about the last large sleeping car charter movement, of General Motors employees to the Greenbriar resort. It included a quote from the Amtrak handout to the passengers explaining that some of the cars were borrowed from Southern Railway, Canadien railroads, and private owners.

Did the D&H ever borrow CP cars for the trains between Windsor Station and Grand Central Terminal? I may recall a CP dome car running as far South as Albany or Harmon.

Before the Toronto - Chicago "International" became an Amtrak train with equipment alternating between countries every other day, was there mixed equipment?

Of course, there were cross border runs with RDCs.

JimBoylan wrote:Did the D&H ever borrow CP cars for the trains between Windsor Station and Grand Central Terminal? I may recall a CP dome car running as far South as Albany or Harmon.

Yes, when the service was first revived in the Amtrak era as the Adirondack, it included a leased CP dome that ran between Montreal and Albany.

It was way before Amtrak, but to add to Mr. Norman's list of interchanged passenger equipment there was also the Boston-Montreal service operated by the B&M and CP that used equipment from both roads. The only E-units in Canada, CP's three E8s, were originally assigned to that run. In later years CP RDCs ran down to Boston via that route.

In regards to the international, it was a alternating via and amtrak trainset for a while, the via set using an LRC engine and coaches, then an F40 and LRC coaches, then the consist as of my last international ride - 1995 - was a via F40 with modified amtrak horizons. The horizons were modified to have the doors swing open, because I distinctly remember a via crewmember telling us how hard it is to slide a horizon door open in the snow and ice. We had one slider on that train and every time that crewmember had to open it he tugged and grunted it moved so poorly. I was thankful for the swinging doors because they were dutch-style, and I could lean out the window. Later it was changed to an all-amtrak operation, then canceled. It's a shame, as the trip was rather pleasant.

Tadman wrote: It's a shame, as the trip was rather pleasant.

But very late when I took it to Chicago, joining at London Ontario, where it was on time.

TomNelligan wrote:Yes, when the service was first revived in the Amtrak era as the Adirondack, it included a leased CP dome that ran between Montreal and Albany.

Amtrak also used leased CP “Chateau” sleepers on the Montrealer and on trains between New York, Florida and Chicago in the mid ‘70s. These are the same cars still in service today on VIA.

When Amtrak’s old xPC Es would break-down on the Montrealer, you could find CN FPA4s substituting as far south as New Haven. VIA eventually sold these units to US tourist trains such as the Grand Canyon RR and The Napa Valley Wine Train.

TomNelligan wrote:It was way before Amtrak.......there was also the Boston-Montreal service operated by the B&M and CP that used equipment from both roads. The only E-units in Canada, CP's three E8s, were originally assigned to that run. In later years CP RDCs ran down to Boston via that route.

This train must have been a Customs nightmare! Train rain from Montreal to the US border. Crossed it to serve Richford, Vermont. Back into Quebec then finally back into the US at North Troy. All within 10 miles! Wonder how they would handle that one today. Post 9-11!

The CP E units were eventually used on the "Atlantic Limited" another cross-border service through Maine between Montreal and the Maritimes.

Tadman wrote:In regards to the international, it was a alternating via and amtrak trainset for a while...............

VIA’s xCN “Tempo” equipment was used for awhile on the International in the mid ‘80s. These cars are sill in service on the Colorado “Ski-Train”

http://www.skitrain.com/winter.html

(Click on "Train Cars" in the left menu for photos, floor plans etc. of the cars)

NS VIA FAN wrote: This train must have been a Customs nightmare! Train rain from Montreal to the US border. Crossed it to serve Richford, Vermont. Back into Quebec then finally back into the US at North Troy. All within 10 miles! Wonder how they would handle that one today. Post 9-11!.

There used to be such trains in Europe, notably between two towns in Austria passing through a part of Germany. The doors were locked by customs and immigration before the train crossed the frontier and it didn't stop while in the "other" country. There is still such a line on the Italian Swiss border.

But nowadays there are no immigration or customs checks within the EU (Schengen zone) so it doesn't matter any more. Trains of this type were known as Korridorzuge.

NS VIA FAN wrote:This train must have been a Customs nightmare! Train rain from Montreal to the US border. Crossed it to serve Richford, Vermont. Back into Quebec then finally back into the US at North Troy. All within 10 miles! Wonder how they would handle that one today. Post 9-11!

Although not a passenger train route, the Kettle Falls International Railroad operates a route from north of Spokane, Washington, crossing the U.S./Canada border at Cauther, Washington, serving Grand Forks, B.C., crossing back into the U.S. at Danville, Washington, terminating at San Poil, Washington.