Transfers and Late Trains question.

Re:

In the case between New York and Albany, there is not much need for the Lake Shore to make any of these stops, there is an Albany train that makes the stops and one can connect at Albany.

On Westbound trips, passengers boarding in POU, RHI, and HUD and connecting to the LSL in ALB must endure a 1' 45" layover in ALB. In addition, train #283 does not offer checked baggage. Asking theoretical passengers attempting to travel to EKH or HMI to connect again in TOL at 4:56 a.m. (with another layover of nearly 2 hours) to another long-haul train that frequently runs late is really over the edge. (I use the word theoretical purposefully, because I suspect that few, if any, non-railfan members of the traveling public would subject themselves to this experience.)

On the Eastbound trips, passengers destined for HUD, RHI, and POU must connect in ALB again -- a connection often complicated by #48's erratic operation.

All in all, I think it is much more appropriate that the LSL stop in the staffed stations along its route rather than attempting to force passengers attempting to travel between stations along its route to endure one or more lengthy layovers.

Rhinecliff wrote:Re:

All in all, I think it is much more appropriate that the LSL stop in the staffed stations along its route rather than attempting to force passengers attempting to travel between stations along its route to endure one or more lengthy layovers.

I assume, Mr Rhinecliff, that you are proposing to make the Lakeshore Limited a "local service" train rather than a "limited stops" train?

I concur with you in that for someone travelling, in your example, POU to EKH would not like having to change trains twice, consider the alternative. For starters, one must travel either to New York or to Albany to board a commercial aircraft....thereby making at least one 'change' just to get on a plane. Elkhart does not have an airport, either. You must fly to South Bend, Indianapolis, or Detroit...requiring at least 1 additional change to get there. In checking airline ALB-SBD possibilities, the traveller will be faced with either 1 or 2 aircraft changes, as well, and pay roughly $100 more than Amtrak charges between POU and EKH.

Already, the westbound NYP departure time is several hours earlier than many would like, with a decent AM CHI arrival time. Accomodating 3-5 additional stops would add, perhaps 2 hours to the schedule due to the necessity of double and triple stopping at smaller stations. Delaying arrival at CHI by 2 hours (in addition to any delays encountered in-route) seriously jeopardizes turn-around-time. Making departure 'around noon' at NYP borders on the ridiculous.

Like the airlines and bus companies, Amtrak cannot be a 'one train serves all stations' carrier. They all strive to provide service to as many cities as possible. But the realities of business economics necessitates the implementation of local, limited and, in the case of airlines, non-stop services.

Re:

Accomodating 3-5 additional stops would add, perhaps 2 hours to the schedule due to the necessity of double and triple stopping at smaller stations.

I am certainly not suggesting that the LSL become a "local train". The LSL served each of the stations under discussion successfully for decades on a schedule that was faster than today's schedule without those stops.

It is supremely ironic that the rationale floated for discontinuing these stops is to improve time keeping. But the LSL's on time performance has never been worse.

Also, numerous commecial carriers offer service from Newburgh/Stewart to South Bend. The trip involves a single connection (in Cincinnati or Detroit), with total travel time being as low as 4'23". Round trip excursion fares of less than $300.00 are readily available, and checked baggage service is offered. Flights are available at various times throughout the day.

Numerous commercial carriers offer service from Albany to South Bend. The trip involves a single connection in Cleveland, Cincinnati, or Detroit), with total travel time as low as 3' 43". Round trip excursion fares of less than $300.00 are readily available, and checkec baggage service is offered. (Delta even offers curbside checked baggage.) Flights are available at various times throughout the day.

Actually train 48 (Lake Shore Limited) is only 36 minutes late today
according to the Amtrak web sight. This will allow a decent connection at
Albany for Hudson, Rhinecliff and other stops.
Going west a 45 minute connection at Albany which I do not think is
excessive.
Albany has a new station with various services available and is a decent
place to change trains.
I question the sense of even making the one stop at Croton-Harmon with
a train of this nature, it is a highly congested area and going through there
non-stop would seem to me to improve its operation. Historically years
ago Harmon (no Croton in the name under the New York Central) was
used as a stop for the necessary change from/to electric locomotives for
the run to/from New York.
Albany can very well serve as a decent and staffed point for transfer of
all passengers from Westchester County and other points between New
York and Albany.
Noel Weaver

Re:

Actually train 48 (Lake Shore Limited) is only 36 minutes late today according to the Amtrak web sight. This will allow a decent connection at Albany for Hudson, Rhinecliff and other stops.

That's great for the passengers today. But they still have to wait around in Abany for the 2:00 p.m. departure to complete their journey (the remaining portin of which involves a ride that takes less than an hour). We'll see if that train is on time.


On the Westbound, the 45" connection is not guaranteed. Amtrak's reservation system puts Westbound passeners on #283.[/quote]

This discussion of the merits of stopping in secondary locations is tragically ridiculous. We talk of the "Lake Shore Limited" as if it truly were a "limited" train in the traditional sense of the 20th Century or Broadway Limited.

The reality is it is the only THROUGH train on its route. Hence it is an accommodation train and needs to be operated as such.

What legitimate excuses can there be for not stopping at Poughkeepsie, Rhinecliff, Hudson, Elkhart and Hammond? Only one; that they generate insufficient traffic. Well there's only one way to find out. By stopping.

If Amtrak's Empire trains routinely make NYP-ALB in 2:20 - 2:25, the LSL, with its heavier consist, should be able to do 2:40, including intermediate stops. Between Cleveland and Chicago, the LSL save only 11 minutes westbound and 23 minutes eastbound as a result of skipping Hammond and Elkhart. Would that extra time on a trip already scheduled to consume 18:50 lead a rationale person to suddenly conclude that the train takes too long from New York to Chicago?

OTOH, look at the inconvenience caused for someone wanting to go from, say, Poughkeepsie to Elkhart: A 1:45 wait at Albany and 1:34 at Cleveland IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. That's over three hours of wasted time, not to mention the hassle of transferring luggage (and small children or disabled fellow passengers)

Ask yourselves: Would you want your MOTHER to make that trip? Do you hate your mother that much?

One poster reminded us that people from Hudson Valley routinely drive to airports in Albany, Newburgh or New York City, which, of course, involves a change. They do that because once they get to the airport, they will catch a plane that will put them in Chicago IN TWO HOURS, NOT 16 HOURS.

So, I urge you operating types to try to view the situation from the customer's perspective. I know. That's something that's unheard of in railroading [A friend has told me horror stories of trying to arrange private trips over Amtrak]. But it's a must if Amtrak is to have any chance of surviving, because if Amtrak is merely an operational nuisance - instead of a viable public service - it has no business running in the first place.

I think that the LSL should go non stop between NYP and ALB to try and save some time to imporve it's OTP.

AmtrakFan

The stop at Harmon, Mr. Fan, is simply too great a tradition to break, even if there is now no longer an operational reason to make it.

All of "The Great Steel Fleet' stopped there.

I think that the LSL should go non stop between NYP and ALB to try and save some time to imporve it's OTP.

LSL OT problems occur mainly west of Hoffmans, NY, where it must dodge the flood of freight trains operated by CSX and NS. Cutting a few minutes between NYP and ALB does not address this nor does it yield sufficient incremental business to/from NYP to replace business last at Croton-Harmon, Poughkeepsie, Rhinecliff and Hudson (Oh! I forgot, the business from those last three stations has already been lost).

The stop at Harmon, Mr. Fan, is simply too great a tradition to break, even if there is now no longer an operational reason to make it.

All of "The Great Steel Fleet' stopped there.

Why are we tied to tradition? Truth be told, Tarrytown would be a much better location for a Westchester stop since it is a stone's throw away from the Tappan Zee Bridge and the Cross-Westchester Expressway. This would help attract business from Orange and Rockland Counties, Northern New Jersey, Long Island and Fairfield County, CT, in addition to Westchester.

Li Loco makes a very good point about the merits of an Amtrak stop in Tarrytown in lieu of Amtrak's current stop in Croton Harmon (and also Yonkers, for that matter).

As Li Loco points out, Tarrytown station lies at the foot of the Tapan Zee bridge, offering very convenient access to the station from all of Rockland and Orange Counties. In fact, each of those Counties already sponsors high-quality intermodal motor coach service to the Tarrytown station. The Westchester Bee Line also provides frequent bus service from the Tarrytown Station to all other rivertown points along Route 9 between Yonkers and Ossening. (Of course Tarrytown is also an express stop on the MetroNorth's Hudson Line, so virtually every Hudson Line train serves Tarrytown Station, expresses and locals alike.) The Bee Line also provides frequent bus service between Tarrytown Station and White Plains -- Westchester's county seat, and a commonly requested destination by Amtrak's Empire Service passengers.

Croton Harmon, on the other hand, has only limited bus service to White Plains, and last I knew, the buses did not even serve the station itself. One has to walk a considerable distance and stand in a remote location waiting for the bus. The only advantages of Croton Harmon are that its station is staffed by MetroNorth ticket agents well into th evening, and the station itself remains open until the last MetroNorth train departs. (Of course the MetroNorth ticket agents no longer sell Amtrak tickets, and they have never had much use for Amtrak's passengers even when they did.) Croton Harmon also has parking available for walk-up Amtrak passengers. Tarrytown, on the other hand, has very limited, permit-only parking for daily commuters.

Another factor concerning Croton-Harmon is the station waiting area itself is cold, sterile, unwelcoming. I once waited 40 minutes for an Amtrak there and think it is a lousy place to wait for a train. Never been inside the Tarrytown station so I cannot make a comparison, though.

When open (i.e., during weekday mornings and early afternoons only), the Tarrytown Station is extremely pleasant -- much more so than Croton Harmon, as Li Loco points out. Unfortunately, the Tarrytown Station closes at around 2:00 p.m.

If Amtrak was as forward thinking (and well funded) as California DOT, it would discontinue service to Yonkers and Croton Harmon, commence service at Tarrytown, staff the station, and also commence a Thruway Bus connection between Tarrytown, White Plains, and Stamford. Ideally, the Thruway Busses would be coordinated to offer not only service to and from White Plains from the NEC and Empire Corridor, but also to allow some connectivity between the trains on both corridors. The lack of parking at Tarrytown, however, would be a serious impediment to this proposal.

No one answered the question about the area around Toledo station.

How is that?

In any case, as for the LSL...

I'm curious if anyone has looked at extending one of the NYP-BUF trains to Chicago, or even doing a cross-platform transfer.

This would complement the LSL, not replace it. Necessarily it would be w/o sleepers at this point, but would there be enough intermediary traffic to warrant one more train a day from BUF-CHI each way I wonder.

From postings made in the past, as I recall, Tolede station is "uh, not exactly' in the best part of town.

Several years ago, I voiced the Tarrytown proposal to Wes Coates, the former Amtrak product manager for the Empire Corridor. He thought the idea had some merit, but obviously he had bigger fish to fry.

I suspect, the idea would have to be "sold" to Amtrak through local support, i.e. government officials and civic groups in Tarrytown and, then, Westchester County would have to want it and demand it. Then there are issues of station suitability, e.g. can waiting room hours be extended? what facilities are needed for northbound passengers? is there adequate parking? Finally, there are the money questions. What improvements are needed? How much will they cost? Who will pay?

We know the answer to the last one. You can bet it won't be Amtrak! What a way to run a railroad.