The Entire HBLRT System is Retarded

It appears to me as an overly complex cluster f___.

I don't like the fare system or the 'ticket validation' business. Granted, the PATH trains and NYC trains are also a rip-off, but the fare systems are a bit saner.

Just one question, if a "fare enforcement Nazi" makes you show your ticket, and you have not validated it, will they still fine you? Even if you give some excuse like the validation machine must have malfunctioned or you were about to miss the train?

It seems insane to be fined, while you are able to show a paid ticket. I suppose it's the validation bit I find nauseating. It seems like an extra unnecessary step, solely designed by bureaucrats, control-freaks, and ignorant nazi/aryan nations types. "Jersey hillbillies" as it were.

This is my dream:
I want to buy a ticket from West Side Ave to Pavonia/Newport for example, out of a vending machine, that clearly specifies, the originating station and the destination station, give me three hours to use that ticket before it expires, and let me forgo completely, this "ticket validation" B.S.

One of the ideas of having the separate validation is to allow folks to buy tickets in advance.
If the machine dispensed timed tickets then there'd have to be some provision to allow the advance ticket purchasers to buy untimed tickets, and still allow them some way to indicate when they were using their stockpile.
One way to do that could be a menu option on the ticket vending machine for a "use immediately" vs a "use in the future" ticket.
But that's a tradeoff, it'd probably take more time for the vending machine to stamp an expiration time, which I imagine is a reason why NJT, and other agencies which use self service proof of payment systems, opted to have the vending machines dispense unstamped tickets, shorten the transaction times at the expensive and perhaps difficult to maintain vending machines, and cascade some of the work onto the hopefully faster, cheaper time stamping validation machines.

Yes it's an encumberance for the single ride purchaser, but it's a help for the frequent rider, who's still occasional enough not to find unlimited ride passes worthwhile. And if my guess about how difficult it might be to cram time stamping functions into the vending machines is correct, it may actually help even the single ride purchaser to have the functions in different machines.

By the way, how is a bus driver, who I expect would demand you to present a fare when boarding, less of a Nazi than a fare enforcement officer?

at7000 wrote:It seems insane to be fined, while you are able to show a paid ticket.

And how are they supposed to know that you haven't already taken 6 trips on your non-validated ticket, never encountering a fare agent?

I've never seen someone with such anger toward a timestamp, really.

gee, is 6 trips the maximum you're allowed to ride on an unvalidated ticket?:)

We sure are glad we rail advocates refrain from using European passenger rail systems as a viable model for U.S. operations.

Douglas, did you forget to put in your sarcasm tags, or LOL at the end of your post?

By the way, the only European system I rode was Rome, they had ticket vending and validation machines on board the vehicles. I never got inspected, but I wondered what kind of a mad rush there would be to stamp tickets if somebody spotted an inspector on the platform or sidewalk as the trolley or bus approached a stop. Or if there would be an undercover inspector who'd board a stop before the uniformed guys who would perform goaltending.

gardendance wrote:gee, is 6 trips the maximum you're allowed to ride on an unvalidated ticket?:)

You're allowed as many as you want, until you get caught. The trick is to ride enough that the fare you would have paid is greater than the violation amount.

radioboy wrote: I've never seen someone with such anger toward a timestamp, really.

Not unless they got caught trying to cheat the timestamp.

I don't understand the big deal about taking 1/4 of a second to validate a ticket. The reason for it is clear, its vastly less expensive of a system to maintain and enforce.

Some good points were made, I'll attempt to address a few:

I understand that without the timestamp, people could use (abuse?) the system all day long. But come on, this is a "commuter rail" type system. I reckon 80-90% of the ridership are working stiffs going back and forth to the office. hardly the type of people to ride light rail all day, just for the hell of it or in the feeble attempt to view the polluted swamps and the decaying buildings of NJ.

On the other hand, with the homeless problem and all, I guess they would be tempted to ride it all day, as they certainly do it on the NYC subways. And the 5% of the population who are total losers/weirdos, might be inclined to hangout on light rail all day, and get their jollies that perverse way. But in reality, it's just inconveniencing the vast majority of the responsible ridership.

As for the subject of "fare inspectors," it just seems so barbaric and evil to try and "scare the populace into compliance and submission." It's like every cheesy movie, where the Gestapo suddenly starts checking papers, of normal people just going about their daily business. Or like communist Russia, where the KGB made random checks on the poplulace. "Are your papers all in order KKKomrade?" Bwahahah. People start living in a state of stress and terror about being "called out."

As you've explained that you're new the system, let me try to explain a bit further, and show where you're perhaps missing the idea.

The 'abuse of the system' thing isn't about homeless or anyone 'riding it all day'. Its about perhaps students who would be very tempted to save some dough, or someone with financial issues would like like to shave a few bucks, or yes, even commuters who are more than happy to take advantage of a discount if they can get it. It not about people riding it all day, its about people riding it daily on one ticket for a week until they happen to run into a fare inspector.

I don't think it has anything to do with 'scaring people' into anything, but simply setting up a system such that the incentives of breaking the rules are severe enough to make it not-worthwhile. You can still jump the turnstiles in the NYC subway, but the vast majority of people will not because the punishment if an agent or officer happens to catch you aren't worth the benefit. I don't see it as particularly different than stationing an agent booth near a turnstyle in the NYC subway. Or having a conductor collecting fares on commuter rail. It's not being called out, its just about doing their job to be sure riders are paying their fare share.

So why not do a NYC style system? Well for starters because it'd be much more expensive to build the station. You need to limit entry points, seal off corners, and buy/install/check/repair gates. That may not be a huge deal for underground stations, but could be a big issue for above-ground like HLBRT. Also, you need someone manning the station at all times to discourage gate-jumping & assist those with disabilities who can't use the gates.

A time-stamp validation system is a lot easier and less expensive of a system to run if the usage volume doesn't justify full time staffing. But you need to have penalties to discourage cheating the system.

Far be it for NJ-ARP to dismiss substantive criticism of HBLRT or any other rail passenger operation. To that end, our earlier comment was anything but flip; though we can see how sarcasm could be inferred, we did not intend same, for we really do strive not to measure up U.S. (New Jersey) operations against Europe, for good or ill. From a political vantage point, it often yields no benefit.

That said, NJ-ARP's collective experience with HBLRT is very different from that of at7000. People do use the system all day long, and HBLRT is for more than "commuters" (a term we tend to despise, as we've noted elsewhere). We see (and sometimes are) people going shopping, going visiting, going to events, going to restaurants, via HBLRT--it is not for working stiffs only. We do see the decaying buildings, but far fewer of them than when the system opened in 2000 (and since when does HBLRT have the lock on decay in New Jersey?); traveling down Essex Street in Jersey City is a far, far different experience than that prior to 2000, and not necessarily for the worse.

In the past, we've remarked on how farebeaters often scatter or play the game when inspectors are on the scene; in one case the sterling youth of America made for the exits, while the (presumably) homeless guy on board dutifully produced his ticket, adequately stamped and valid. So much for stereotypes; if "losers" and "weirdos" pay their way, they're entitled to ride. This person, at least, was "inconveniencing" no one--certainly not this rider.

In an age where machines often do the checking, we're not clear on why a human presence, welcomed by some for various reasons, suddenly translates into dark "Gestapo" or "KGB" tones. Most folk today don't even need to unplug their electronic Binkys to honor a ticket check--how hostile is that? We'll grant that any one individual checker might be mean or power mad, and perhaps at7000 met one, but we haven't seen systemwide hostility run amok.

Doug, again I have to ask about a reference in your post. Do "Electronic Binky's" mean that HBLRT riders have a webcam connection on their cellpods to Das Binky, a quaint structure near the Hoboken tracks, mentioned in a thread on the NJT Rail forum?

As to the impression of ticket inspector strong arm tactics, I think that's partly due to the incredible ease when the system works at its best. If one buys a bunch of tickets in advance, then it's pretty easy to stamp one before boarding, and if no inspector shows up one's no further inconvenienced.

Contrast that with what happens when an inspector does show up and one has no validated ticket.

Contrast both of those scenarios with what happens in traditional fare collection. One must present a fare before being allowed to start one's ride, so one gets inconvenienced slightly every time and the repercussions for not having a fare are a lot less than what a ticket inspector would do.

Douglas John Bowen wrote:In an age where machines often do the checking, we're not clear on why a human presence, welcomed by some for various reasons, suddenly translates into dark "Gestapo" or "KGB" tones. Most folk today don't even need to unplug their electronic Binkys to honor a ticket check--how hostile is that? We'll grant that any one individual checker might be mean or power mad, and perhaps at7000 met one, but we haven't seen systemwide hostility run amok.

Amen.

The fine for an unvalidated LR ticket is $200 i believe. or roughly 100 trips. 100 trips is a lot to try and not get caught.

Does anyone know about this new "Twitter technology?" I'm thinking that if we were all on the same list or network, we could alert each other when the inspectors are 'out and about' or have set up check points. Then we will know what lines or stations to avoid.

I wonder what the legalities would be of someone organizing such a user broadcast list. Notifying other passengers via text messaging(cellphone based) should pose no problems I imagine.

In other words, I wonder if we could use cutting edge technology to beat the system. For those of us who feel good about 'sticking it to the man.'

This would work as a "rider alert" for those who participate, and might be great for other things too, like train delays, service outages, crazed gunmen on the rampage, terrorist attacks on the system, etc.. It's a great early warning type system.