Subway Extension to Secaucus (Flushing #7 or L Canarsie)

The Parson Brinckerhoff report on the extension includes figures (page 59) on current (2005) ridership and projected ridership.

2005 daily trans-Hudson ridership is estimated at:
NY Penn Station Rail - 127,800
Lincoln Tunnel Buses - 176,100
Uptown PATH - 117,500
Midtown Ferries - 19,300

The study projects the No. 7 extension would attract about 128,000 riders a day, diverting as follows:
Penn Station - 18,000
Uptown PATH - 14,700
Lincoln Tunnel buses - 41,300
Midtown Ferries - 12,250
Auto - 24,400

link

Is it likely that one reason why the tunnel box was recently built was because the Gateway Project is a more likely solution than the #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus.

Gateway's certainly further along. The problem was, if the underground right-of-way wasn't protected they would not have been able to access it once the Hudson Yards foundations were in. It was now or never.

If some developer wants to do construction on a part of the tentative 7 route, would the city act to preserve it? It's a hypothetical so no one really knows.

Tommy Meehan wrote:If some developer wants to do construction on a part of the tentative 7 route, would the city act to preserve it? It's a hypothetical so no one really knows.

Why would the city want to shell out money to preserve a route for a service that only the politicians think is a good idea?

I thought the 7 to New Jersey idea sounded pretty crazy at first too. However I would urge anyone seriously interested to read the Parson Brinckerhoff report on the extension using this link before making up their mind.

For one thing, the report identifies that cross-Hudson travel on weekdays is expected to increase by more than 30% by 2035. There is no way the current tunnels -- both rail and auto -- can handle that much more traffic. Right now the PATH and Amtrak North River tunnels are at capacity at rush hour. The Lincoln and Holland tunnels are over capacity at rush hour.

Even Gateway will not provide enough capacity to absorb predicted growth. For one thing, not everyone in northern New Jersey is near a commuter rail line. More people actually use buses to get to Manhattan than use commuter rail. There are large areas in northern New Jersey that would probably be better served by a bus-subway connection (running 24 hours a day) than by using commuter rail. The travel time from Secaucus to Grand Central is estimated at 16 minutes and at relatively low cost. For some working people, sad to say, commuter train fares are already way too expensive.

The other factor is, the one thing that seems certain, we're not going to see another vehicle tunnel built. The Port Authority has rejected that idea. So if the New York City economy continues to grow how do people in New Jersey continue get to the high-paying jobs available there?

I think we could probably do without the 7 running to New Jersey but the more I find out about it the more I have come to believe it would be an excellent asset to have.

Tommy Meehan wrote:I thought the 7 to New Jersey idea sounded pretty crazy at first too. However I would urge anyone seriously interested to read the Parson Brinckerhoff report on the extension using this link before making up their mind.

For one thing, the report identifies that cross-Hudson travel on weekdays is expected to increase by more than 30% by 2035. There is no way the current tunnels -- both rail and auto -- can handle that much more traffic. Right now the PATH and Amtrak North River tunnels are at capacity at rush hour. The Lincoln and Holland tunnels are over capacity at rush hour.

Even Gateway will not provide enough capacity to absorb predicted growth. For one thing, not everyone in northern New Jersey is near a commuter rail line. More people actually use buses to get to Manhattan than use commuter rail. There are large areas in northern New Jersey that would probably be better served by a bus-subway connection (running 24 hours a day) than by using commuter rail. The travel time from Secaucus to Grand Central is estimated at 16 minutes and at relatively low cost. For some working people, sad to say, commuter train fares are already way too expensive.

The other factor is, the one thing that seems certain, we're not going to see another vehicle tunnel built. The Port Authority has rejected that idea. So if the New York City economy continues to grow how do people in New Jersey continue get to the high-paying jobs available there?

I think we could probably do without the 7 running to New Jersey but the more I find out about it the more I have come to believe it would be an excellent asset to have.

I agree. Even with Gateway, NJ commuters still have no easy way to get to the east side of Manhattan. The chances of both projects being built are pretty slim but it's not a bad idea. I'll throw this wrinkle in too...

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20 ... /312049993" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or the idea of extending/connecting PATH to the east side IRT which has been suggested in a number of places. Any of those would truly connect the region better than Gateway will.

That article mentions that Hoboken has several tracks. But the Seven Extension is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to use these new tracks, since these tracks are at grade level, and the subway would have to be built below ground. If the Seven were to be extended, it would have to go to Secaucus Junction, and have an additional stop between Secaucus and the Javits Center...

What is the probability that neither the Gateway Project or Seven Extension gets built?!

Thomas wrote:That article mentions that Hoboken has several tracks. But the Seven Extension is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to use these new tracks, since these tracks are at grade level, and the subway would have to be built below ground. If the Seven were to be extended, it would have to go to Secaucus Junction, and have an additional stop between Secaucus and the Javits Center...

What is the probability that neither the Gateway Project or Seven Extension gets built?!

I think the writer's point was that there's spare capacity and spare room at Hoboken -- not that the 7 train would platform in the train shed. I don't think the 7 train is going anywhere in NJ though. Gateway -- fingers crossed.

Let's hope so. Gateway could be a major game changer IF it gets built. But why was Christie so supportive of the Seven Extension to Secaucus?

Thomas wrote:Let's hope so. Gateway could be a major game changer IF it gets built. But why was Christie so supportive of the Seven Extension to Secaucus?

Because New York would pay.

But you're getting confused again. Gateway is real, the (7) to Secucus is not.

Are you saying that even though Christie claimed that he would split the cost of the Seven Extension to Secaucus, he was, in fact, lying?

Thomas wrote:Are you saying that even though Christie claimed that he would split the cost of the Seven Extension to Secaucus, he was, in fact, lying?

Construction and operating costs are two separate things. Once the service is up and running New York would pay the lion's share of operating costs, track and signal work, etc. There might have been a "happy medium" they could have reached, but with the agency having 469 stops in one state and 2 in the other, fairly proportioning operating and maintenance costs would be very, very difficult and complicated to figure out in a way that would fairly benefit both sides.

So what was Christie's real intention?

There would have to be a way for New Jersey to fund the portion of the extension in New Jersey. New York is not going to pay to build a subway in New Jersey. There would also have to be a formula for splitting operating costs. That's not insurmountable, either. NY MTA already operates a joint service with Connecticut, Metro-North's New Haven Line.

Christie has acknowledged that in order to qualify for federal funding New Jersey and New York would have to supply a local share. Christie has said he likes the 7 extension because New York is willing to share the cost.

New Jersey will “do our share” if New York state and the city contribute to the financing, Christie said in a WCBS radio interview. “All of this will be able to come together.”

Link

The biggest unknown is whether federal funds could be obtained. If that is possible it's conceivable this project could happen. Now before you ask, how likely is that? I have no idea, I don't think anyone really knows at this point.

Tommy Meehan wrote:Christie has acknowledged that in order to qualify for federal funding New Jersey and New York would have to supply a local share.

But if the Seven Extension appears unlikely and does not get built, would Christie chip in for Amtrak's Gateway Project?