Station Improvements

jfrey40535 wrote:Why is everyone here so obsessed with station elimination? Fewer stations = fewer riders = less revenue. Bear in mind, skipping a station saves only 1 minute.

Look around in the archives and you'll see the calculations I did about how much time is saved by passengers already on board when one of those little-used stops is skipped. I think it worked out to a 5 to 1 ratio or something like that.

Faster service means more riders at the stations up the line, and higher revenue for SEPTA since those passengers are paying more than the ones close in. As I said earlier, SEPTA definitely takes these considerations into account when making decisions about these stations.

Faster service means more riders at the stations up the line, and higher revenue for SEPTA since those passengers are paying more than the ones close in. As I said earlier, SEPTA definitely takes these considerations into account when making decisions about these stations.

But SEPTA has been eliminating stations for years, and I don't see ridership going through the roof. Again, each station eliminated equals a one minute savings. Instead what is happening is that service like regional rail is becoming a "suburban only" service for the burbies even though us city taxpayers fund it as well.

Hell, why don't they cancel all the trains? That would save them loads of time!

Those who live in the suburbs but work in the city are also "city taxpayers" since they also have to pay the substantial wage tax of about 4.5%. The state also pays a significant chunk for SEPTA's services. We should be looking at this and asking ourselves how something like stations closing (or opening new ones) benefits the region as a whole.

For a heavily used line like the R5 (both sides of it), stopping at close-in stations with less than 50 daily boards is probably not a good use of resources, but a line with less ridership such as the R6 (also both sides) needs all the riders it can get.

Are closing stations the only way to improve the speed with which a SEPTA train finishes its run? How many times has it been said here that the PRR & RDG ran the same routes as SEPTA... with steam equipment... with MORE STATIONS... in less time? There are obviously other issues at work (which have been discussed ad nauseum) besides the number of and distance between stations, which can be fixed WITHOUT cutting service.

Thank you Umblehoon....exactly the point.

This is partly why the loss of the LD trains out of Reading Terminal hurt us. When we had trains running to Bethlehem, maybe some of them didn't stop at Spring Garden or Allegheny, but the Norristown locals did. Our entire system today is mainly made up of "local service". Trains like the R5 Doylestown and West Trenton on the RDG side which have longer runs than Fox Chase or Norristown, should not be bothered with stopping at local inner city stops like Wayne, North Broad, Logan, Tabor, Nicetown and Tioga (bring them all back!). Use trains with shorter runs, like the Fox Chase which only has 4 stops of its own to serve the inner city where it doesen't have as much of an effect on a commuter's schedule.

If we made better use of inner city stops, then maybe we wouldn't need to be sending articulated Neoplans all the way up to Doylestown or Willow Grove! I've ridden the 55 and 95% of the riders are people coming from Broad & Olney and going to Willow Grove mall. They're taking the bus because there is no train near where they live or the train costs too much. Remember, every dime spent on the bus division is one less for the railroads.

jfrey40535 wrote:Remember, every dime spent on the bus division is one less for the railroads.

Actually, one dime on the bus division is a little more than two less for the railroads, since a token-paying customer pays half as much as a train-ticket-paying one.

Thats why the bus is so much more attractive to city commuters than the railroad. Look at all the people along City Ave that are heading into the city from Wissahickon transfer or via 69th Street on the 65, 124/125. If we had half-hourly departures on the Ivy Ridge trains with fares equal to the bus division (you are going the same distance) people would use it, and would make the Ivy Ridge branch a worthwhile operation all day. Ivy Ridge is the only line we have that operates like MARC or MBTA during peak hours only.

I have to question the validity of claims that steam-hauled commuter trains serving Chestnut Hill were in reality faster than today's service. I'd like to see the actual data and source material used to make this claim, which I remember reading in the DVARP newsletter from a long time ago.

The acceleration and braking characteristics of steam trains don't lend themselves well to the frequent station stops and short station spacing along this line. They would rarely get above 30 mph between stops. There are a few explanations I can think of:

- the passenger trailers were half the weight of current rail cars
- there were fewer riders and hence shorter station dwell times
- the train used a shorter, more direct route in the center city
- the schedules were made fast, either to be more competitive with the other railroad, or because it was an early schedule that wasn't based on actual running times.

I know people like to bash SEPTA since they screw up a lot, but I'm curious as to how to actually speed things up. It's sort of an interesting technical exercise to ask yourself, if you ran the railroad, what would you do?

I don't know about steam train service being faster on the Chestnut Hill lines, but as a dismal comparison you can go to http://readingrailroad.org/reading/rdg_pass_sched.html and lookup old Reading timetables and see for yourself.

As an example, I used a train out of Reading Terminal in 1964 bound for Lansdale, and on to Bethlehem.

The comparison is between North Broad and Wayne Junction

IN 1964 using Budd RDC's:
Lv North Broad 8:16
Ar Wayne Junction 8:21

In 2004 using GE Silverliner IV's
Lv North Broad 8:31
Ar Wayne Junction 8:35

SEPTA is 1 minute faster....Both trains make no stops between NBroad and Wayne.

I also looked at SEPTA train #568 on the R5 Schedule which leaves North Broad at 4:01P. The trip from NB to Jenkintown is 14 minutes with stops at Wayne and Fern Rock.

The Reading made the same trip via RDC's with a stop only at Wayne and Jenkintown in 13 minutes. This tells me there is alot of problems with the way SEPTA runs a railroad. In the 1964-2004 comparison SEPTA has many advantages:
welded rail
modern cab signalling
electric equipment
new bridges & MOW from railworks
yet they only manage to gain a 1 minute advantage in this 7.9 mile stretch of railroad.

Thanks for the link.

Unfortunately, all the SEPTA capital investments that you mention don't address the real issue of closely-spaced station stops. SEPTA's routes are designed more like a rapid transit system than a commuter rail system. I don't like to see stations closed, but I don't like a slow ride either.

Well again, if we had a broader variety of trains that made a different set of stops, that would greatly improve travel time. But the system was built, designed and maintained in its "rapid transit" format, and I think it should stay that way. Making the system less-accessible isn't the solution.

The railworks really did not speed up things on the reading trunk line because I really wasn't improved much. It was pretty much an exact rebuild of a 1930's railroad. Improvements could have been made but I guess that would have taken longer and more money. Oh well. At least Temple got a new station out of the deal.

Sean@Temple

Sean@Temple wrote:The railworks really did not speed up things on the reading trunk line because I really wasn't improved much. It was pretty much an exact rebuild of a 1930's railroad. Improvements could have been made but I guess that would have taken longer and more money.

To give some specific examples, 16th St. Junction was rebuilt in kind, even though one of the curved switches imposes a speed restriction, and there is a reverse curve on 4 track at Temple that imposes an unnecessary speed restriction.

Why the speed restrictions? Because of the Norristown Branch? Are FRA rules outdated? The MFL passes through switches at break-neck speed without hesitation, yet when the Regional trains pass through a "interlocking" they have to slow to 10mph 1 mile before and after it. Although funny thing, when I ride Amtrak between Wilmington and Claymont, the trains fly. When I take SEPTA they crawl. What's up with that????