Southern Tier Signals

If they had no plans on ever runnings more trains over the eastern end of the Southern Tier, why do they still have the signals lit up? Wouldnt it just be easier and cheaper to use Form D's? I doubt any trains really even pass over this part of the line anymore. If I remember correctly, I think they were going to turn them off until they decided to leave them on and fix them at the last moment. Any idea why?

Please respond to this thread before it gets locked

Yes the railroad had planned to turn the signals off. Just a few weeks after the announcement that horrific crash occurred in the Carolinas on NS where a train in "dark territory" derailed on a switch set the wrong way. The resultant derailment ended with a ruptured Chlorine tank car and AFAIR nearly a dozen people killed and many more injured from the Chlorine gas.

The CNY (NYS&W) then recinded their request to kill the signals and actually started to upgrade them. Most still run off the code line (copper wire on poles) adjacent to the tracks. From chit chat I have had with the NYS&W maintainer, keeping the brush clear from the lines is the biggest headache as well as cobating the rotten wooden poles.

The line between Binghamton and Port Jervis sees two turns per day. Typically they two different trains pass each other in Shohola, Narrowsburg or Deposit. So the signals are handy. Recent changes to the signals have been made due to track removal and the short extension of yard limits east of Binghamton and single tracking down to Deposit.

Dont they have to bring the tracks up to all 40mph standards by 2009? Will the line revert back to NS at that time?

I thought they just installed new signal masts up that way?

And why would this get locked?

washingtonsecondary wrote:And why would this get locked?

I have no idea why he put that in there..........perhaps Mr. Secaucus Junction can PM me if he has any concerns?

With 353 topics here, and only 7 of them locked, I fail to see the logic, in that comment. Looking at locked topics, one relates to a fatality, one a question about a kid, and a few that are blatantly false, in their information. I don't think the rush to respond, before this gets locked, is realistic. I coiuld be wrong though..........<<CLICK>>

SecaucusJunction wrote:Dont they have to bring the tracks up to all 40mph standards by 2009? Will the line revert back to NS at that time?

Yes I do believe there is a requirement in the lease to have the entire line up to 40mph at the end of the lease, but it also had a line that the signal system would be shut down so.....I am guessing that the CNY will renegotiate a new lease deal prior to the current one ending. I highly doubt NS will take over operations on the line, unless some huge change in traffic volumes and routings occurs.

Vdub wrote;

I thought they just installed new signal masts up that way?

From what I have gleaned from the NYS&W Yahoo Group, new signals were placed east of Binghamton to extend the "yard limits". This allows greater flexibility in switching. Additionally due to the track removal over Starrucca Viaduct and Gulf Summit last year, several signals were moved / recycled at the ends of the two new controlled sidings.

Chris

Is this the line that follows NY, Rt. 17 for a ways?

I dont know why the track would have to be up to 40mph over the entire route for 1 train per day. I think something is up for 2009 or sometime thereafter. Did NS completely lie at the amount of traffic out of NJ that they could take off the roads?

L'mont wrote:Is this the line that follows NY, Rt. 17 for a ways?

Yes, the Southern Tier Line does parallel Rte 17 for a while.

SecaucusJunction wrote:I dont know why the track would have to be up to 40mph over the entire route for 1 train per day. I think something is up for 2009 or sometime thereafter. Did NS completely lie at the amount of traffic out of NJ that they could take off the roads?

This is just a term of the lease. NS needs to hold CNY to some minimum standard correct? Otherwise what would keep the CNY from taking good rail and replacing for bad, etc. Since most of the line was fettered with 25mph restrictions I too was surprised 25mph was not the magic number but perhaps getting it to 40mph standards was part of the argument the CNY used to sway NS into the lease.

As far as what happens after 2009. As long as the debris traffic continues to grow my personal opinion is CNY will extend the lease. But remember too that the Port Authority is still looking to almost double the amount of containers shipped and received at the ports, so I would think down the line NS will need to re-utilize this route for regular through train service. Perhaps once the Portage Bridge in western NY is replaced thsi route will be looked at more seriously.

Chris

I don't know if this pertains to the CNY Southern Tier, but NS expects to add at least 20 new container trains to the Penn Route by 2010..I'm assuming this new traffic will be taken from the new intermodel facilities that are being built down on the ports of Virgina... The only way I can see NS handling this traffic is if they put the 4th track back in through Altoona.. If not, then you could conceivably see some of the NJ traffic shift over to the Southern Tier lines.

cjvrr wrote:Perhaps once the Portage Bridge in western NY is replaced thsi route will be looked at more seriously.

Chris

NS has received grant money in the past towards a replacement for the bridge. I still am wondering when work will start in it?

[Dont they have to bring the tracks up to all 40mph standards by 2009? Will the line revert back to NS at that time?]

I will have to check a copy of the lease I have acess to later in the week, but If I remember correctly it is a 20 year lease with an option for 10 more. As Chris mentioned, the maintenence standards are in there so that the NYSW will do what was intended at the time of the lease; a short line railroad has more federal and state money availible to it than the larger systems. What Walter may be able to get the state to pay for, NS may have had to do out of pocket. I do not see the line going back to NS for a long time, but as Chris also mentioned, contracts can be renegotiated at any time, and the current contract has clauses for either side to back out. Right now, it costs NYSW about the same amount of money to maintain Port to Binghamton as they where paying in Trackage Rights fees prior to leasing the line.

As for the signal system, it is not as easy as you would think to shut them down; FRA approval is needed to remove them and is hard to get these days for reasons mentioned in previous posts. The work going into them for the one train a day may not seem needed now, but 10 to 15 years from now , who knows how much traffic will be on this line. How many times have we seen lines be abandoned and then we all want them back 15 years down the road as the other routes cannot handle the increased traffic?
NYSW is putting a great deal of money into rebuilding the signal system, ( radio controlled CPs as opposed to the 504 code system and all line wire replaced by Harmon EC5) and by the end of 2007 it will be one of the most up to date ,state of the art systems even though it will still look the same to the casual observer.
NS had no interest in doing this when they had the line, and it did become a maintenence nightmare.[/quote]