Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Don't forget about the 25K that ran for at least a year after the split. It was then moved to the PRR routing and abolished shortly thereafter.

johnpbarlow wrote:

Matt Langworthy wrote:The road freights to which you refer were 46G (eastbound) and 47G (westbound), which NS ran for a few years after the Conrail split.

But remember NS' good intentions at the time NS and CSX were planning Conrail's breakup in the late '90s?

DSCGCX-1, DSCGCX-2, DSCXCG-1, DSCXCG-1, DSCXCG-2, IMCXSL, IMSLCX are
representative of new schedules NS will operate as through service
from Chicago via the Southern Tier Route from Buffalo to Croxton, NJ.
Six intermodal trains a day will be operated in and out of the Croxton
terminal. Four of these trains will be doublestack, and the third pair
between Croxton and St. Louis will handle both doublestack and
conventional intermodal traffic. The St. Louis trains will connect
with the Kansas City trains at the Toledo (Airline) hub, providing
48-hour service between Northern New Jersey and Kansas City, with
traffic pre-blocked for western connections.

NS obviously didn't deliver on that promise. On the other hand, they have reaped the benefits of the western Tier (Buffalo-Binghamton) for New England traffic with 4 intermodal and 2 auto rack freights.

SecaucusJunction wrote:The problem is that NS's main terminal is Harrisburg and the rest of the lines east of there are basically feeders to that point. A train traveling the tier would have no access to block swap in Harrisburg, which is what most trains end up doing.

As I recall from a Trains article some years ago, Harrisburg wasn't initially planned as NS's central intermodal hub on it's share of CR. The original idea was to make northern NJ the intermodal hub in the Northeast. That strategy changed as NS gained experience from operating former CR routes.

SecaucusJunction wrote: I don't know if there are any trains that exit PA exactly the same as they enter it.

Yes, they do exist. In fact, I saw one of them recently- NS 22K. Of course, the NS intermodal and auto rack traffic to/from the Tier is mainly New England based. I do admit these trains don't constitute the majority of traffic.

SecaucusJunction wrote:Now we're all hearing that the RBMN trains will be rerouted and that more service will start once Portageville is replaced.

Part of NS's pitch to NY for replacing the Letchworth viaduct is to increase traffic on the Tier. In addition to Bufflao potentially becoming an inland port, I've also read about a possible intermodal facility in Binghamton. Only time will tell if the new projects will come to fruition and then lead to more New England traffic or revitalize the east end of the Tier.

I'm pretty sure some of the high priority NJ -Chi trains skip Harrisburg too...

That Jamesville inland port is interesting. But keep in mind, Jamesville would likely mean it would be as much or more aligned with CSX than NS (and keep in mind CSX has as much stake in NYS&W as NS has) route-wise and could potentially be served with no change whatsoever to traffic on NS, or even NYS&W south/east of Jamesville itself. Based on the evidence to date, CSX would probably persue this traffic much more aggressively than NS, even all else being equal.

After 17 years of nothing but lies and empty promises, unfortunately it's become pretty clear NS is either not interested or not capable of being a major player north or east of Harrisburg. As far as "trains added to west end of tier", if you adjust for former CP trains that just became NS trains circa 2009+/- when the CP trackage rights were given up, former Buffalo line traffic, and traffic picked up from CP in last year's acquisition, the rack train is the only thing NS has ACTUALLY added. ANd if you look at the gross total traffic in the corridor, the NET is still a loss even with the pair of rack trains.

It is still baffling as to why CP Rail did not make a move to acquire the Southern Tier when they could have both in the 1990s with working a deal with NYS&W and getting complete control of the line line during the Conrail split. The Southern Tier would have greatly enhanced the value and market position of CP's Delaware & Hudson providing a gateway to the NY-NJ market and port. Transcontinental line hauls to the west could have been possible via Chicago over the old Milwaukee Road and Soo Line along with CP's line north of Lake Superior. In the end, NS was probably never really going to make the entire Southern Tier an integral part of their system, outside of what it is today, considering they have the PRR-Reading-Lehigh Valley lines in Pennsylvania as their primary line to New York.

^^^actually there were CP/CR negotiations towards that at one point in the 1990s, I forget the specifics of why it didn't happen but CP did at least once intend to and move toward outright ownership of the Southern TIer. If only that effort had succeeded....

CPF363 wrote:It is still baffling as to why CP Rail did not make a move to acquire the Southern Tier when they could have both in the 1990s with working a deal with NYS&W and getting complete control of the line line during the Conrail split. The Southern Tier would have greatly enhanced the value and market position of CP's Delaware & Hudson providing a gateway to the NY-NJ market and port. Transcontinental line hauls to the west could have been possible via Chicago over the old Milwaukee Road and Soo Line along with CP's line north of Lake Superior. In the end, NS was probably never really going to make the entire Southern Tier an integral part of their system, outside of what it is today, considering they have the PRR-Reading-Lehigh Valley lines in Pennsylvania as their primary line to New York.

I'm guessing a reason that CP didn't want to buy at least the ex-Erie main east of Binghamton is that CP would likely have had no or very few low volume customers to service in the metro NJ area with Conrail Shared assets and NYS&W retaining yards and customer sidings in the area. NS wound up with Coxton Yard so where would CP handle intermodals? CP wouldn't get access to lucrative Chemical Coast customers as that's Shared Assets (ie, NS & CSX) territory. So CP got access only to Oak Island as a trackage rights tenant and was never able to sustain much traffic between NJ and Montreal / Canada / midwest US even after trying for several years. A NJ-midwest routing across the Tier and CP via Detroit was used for manifest freight but I think it's a bit roundabout for intermodal and wouldn't facilitate domestic doublestacks through the Detroit River tunnel. And CP had no access to auto customers in Michigan AFAIK. Thus I don't think owning the track along the Delaware River east of Binghamton would have helped much, especially given how few freight customers are on that line.

My opinions - please take them for what they're worth!

One of the reasons NS and CSX bankrolled the buyout of NYS&W public stock was to eliminate the possibility of CP or CN or another railroad from getting access to northern NJ. But remember to CP had access to Oak Island via Lehigh Line trackage rights as well as access to the Bronx down the east side of the Hudson. In the end CP couldn't make any money on that traffic either and those trains would come and go as CP tried to make it work.

Part of why CP couldn't compete on those routes was being at the whim of the host railroad. Just like NYS&W, Now You Sit and Wait... while CR/NS/MN/NJT trains go by for hours. Also, it's pretty obvious that the gov't, in setting up the D&H trackage rights expansion as part if the required competition/non-monopoly during the creation of COnrail, intentionally did not give D&H rights on the premier routes. For example, clearly New York-Chicago via NKP-Tier to Binghamton on trackage rights- south on D&H-south on CR trackage rights to ALlentown-east to OAk ISland on CR trackage rights, is never going to be cost- or schedule-competive vs. an All CR/PRR, All CR/NYC, or all CR(PRR-RDG-LV) routing from Chicago to NY/NJ.

This was the motivation for CP when they tried to acquire the Tier in the '90s, to at least gain control of a larger portion of D&H routings, and of course if they had ever gotten the east end it would have also drastically reduced Binghamton-NY/NJ area transit times even aside from dispatcher delays and competing companies' traffic.

CP Rail would have had to get involved with the NYS&W early on, e.g. not long after they purchased the D&H from bankruptcy; if CSX and Sealand worked a deal with them, there is no reason that CP could have done the same. Over time CP could have tried to obtain at least a 51% interest in the NYS&W giving them the trackage rights all of the way from northern N.J. to Buffalo. This all would have been done well ahead of the Conrail split. When NS and CSX were splitting up Conrail, CP could have argued for full ownership of the Southern Tier Line at that time stating that most of the trains running on the line are their trains to begin with. Division of the yards in Northern New Jersey could have been worked out between all three of the carriers with with each ending up with one yard a piece and access to the port of N.Y.

oibu wrote:That Jamesville inland port is interesting.

I haven't seen anything indicating NS plans to build anything at Jamesville. There have been articles referencing projects in both Binghamton and Buffalo. Given the direct presence of NS in both of those cities, it seems more likely that the intermodalfacility in Binghamton or the inland port in Buffalo will come to fruititon.

oibu wrote:Based on the evidence to date, CSX would probably persue this traffic much more aggressively than NS, even all else being equal.

What evidence? CSX has been cutting trains of late, and suffered 3 traffic meltdowns since 1999.

oibu wrote:After 17 years of nothing but lies and empty promises, unfortunately it's become pretty clear NS is either not interested or not capable of being a major player north or east of Harrisburg.

Bullcrap. Again, NS added trains to the D&H and actively pursued a partnership with Pan Am. Heck, they even added 4 intermodal freight and two auto rack trains between Buffalo and Binghamton.

oibu wrote:As far as "trains added to west end of tier", if you adjust for former CP trains that just became NS trains circa 2009+/- when the CP trackage rights were given up, former Buffalo line traffic, and traffic picked up from CP in last year's acquisition, the rack train is the only thing NS has ACTUALLY added. ANd if you look at the gross total traffic in the corridor, the NET is still a loss even with the pair of rack trains.

Also not factual at all. NS took over 38T and 39T just last year after 16 years of joint operation with CP. BTW, most of that tonnage has been added to NS 309 and 310 -hence the recent extension to Binghamton.

johnpbarlow wrote:

CPF363 wrote:It is still baffling as to why CP Rail did not make a move to acquire the Southern Tier when they could have both in the 1990s with working a deal with NYS&W and getting complete control of the line line during the Conrail split. The Southern Tier would have greatly enhanced the value and market position of CP's Delaware & Hudson providing a gateway to the NY-NJ market and port. Transcontinental line hauls to the west could have been possible via Chicago over the old Milwaukee Road and Soo Line along with CP's line north of Lake Superior. In the end, NS was probably never really going to make the entire Southern Tier an integral part of their system, outside of what it is today, considering they have the PRR-Reading-Lehigh Valley lines in Pennsylvania as their primary line to New York.

I'm guessing a reason that CP didn't want to buy at least the ex-Erie main east of Binghamton is that CP would likely have had no or very few low volume customers to service in the metro NJ area with Conrail Shared assets and NYS&W retaining yards and customer sidings in the area. NS wound up with Coxton Yard so where would CP handle intermodals? CP wouldn't get access to lucrative Chemical Coast customers as that's Shared Assets (ie, NS & CSX) territory. So CP got access only to Oak Island as a trackage rights tenant and was never able to sustain much traffic between NJ and Montreal / Canada / midwest US even after trying for several years. A NJ-midwest routing across the Tier and CP via Detroit was used for manifest freight but I think it's a bit roundabout for intermodal and wouldn't facilitate domestic doublestacks through the Detroit River tunnel. And CP had no access to auto customers in Michigan AFAIK. Thus I don't think owning the track along the Delaware River east of Binghamton would have helped much, especially given how few freight customers are on that line.

My opinions - please take them for what they're worth!

Both Suzie Q and CP made attempts to acquire the Tier, but CR backed out on both occasions. Conrail had a well-deserved reputation for being anti-competitive throughout its history, so I suspect they became concerned about a possible competitor for traffic into and out of northern NJ. Selling the Tier also would have created a problem for the former LV/CNJ route that Conrail was using between Waverly and Allentown.

We hold on a second here...

Although it is true the traffic to New England has grown a bit, much of the traffic was already there running via CP when NS took over the split in the first place. With the NYSW, CP and Croxton traffic off the western end of the Tier, I don't believe the line is in any more active than it was before. The 38T and 39T are gone so there is really no more traffic on either the western end of the Tier or via the D&H than there was before the takeover of the D&H.

Jamesville inland port is actually real and was approved funding by the state. It would technically be an NYSW run facility but I'm sure NS could run some traffic somehow if they really wanted to. It's got to get through NIMBY opposition up there. CSX is trying to build their own competing port in the area and also already run a trainful of stacks from NJ to Syracuse daily. Right now NS runs only a handful of stacks out of port NJ to Buffalo on a very lengthy schedule via the 36T/37T.

Yes, both Binghamton and Buffalo are rumored to become inland ports as well, once the larger ships are cleared to come into Port of NJ, but that will be a while.....

I stand corrected on the Jamesville inland port. There are several news articles discussing it, so the project (in theory) could happen.

I noticed that you brought up 38T and 39T again, so please let me repeat: only the symbols are gone! The traffic itself still exists, moving mainly on NS 309 and 310.