Ski Excursion trains/theme park

I got a good question for all you guys, in this day and age with the very high cost of gas what keps us from getting ski Excursion trains. some ski resorts like Okemo, the Train LITERALLY! goes past the ski resorts.. I was curious to know what keeps us from having certain ski Excursion Trains that could leave from popular destinations Like Stamford, Bridgeport Etc that would go Up to the resort for the day? the rails are in place that some people could go direct from their hometown to the resort without needing to connect to another train...

Secondly, i take the Vermonter From Stamford To White River Junction Vt, what is keeping it so that the train doesn't continue to Newport Vt to a populal destinations and where colleges/boarding schools and ski Resorts are up in the Northeast Kingom? As it is right now it is actually cheeper for me to take the train which 6 hour direct which is defenately not bad at all... than it is to drive with the price of gas... Only an hour more to take the train! I am sure people who enjoy taking like me could get others to enjoy taking a train to a ski resort as long as their is a place to store their personal belongins.

third. I was curoius what it would take to get excursion trains to theme parks it would be a nice Idea with a connecting bus from a nearby trainstation. what keeps this from happning the cost to run them?
an example of this would be taking a train from stamford Ct to trenton Nj or a station closer to six flags nj and then have a bus to connect to the park. I think it would be a very great idea to have at least an excursion train none the less...


-OZ

A major problem with this idea is that Amtrak does not have a lot of surplus equipment to use on special trains. Also not all of the places you mentioned are on Amtrak routes so there would probably be speed restrictions as well as extra personnel required.

Technically, there is an Amtrak ski train called the Ethan Allen Express from NY-Penn up to Rutland VT, but via the Hudson Valley of NYS. Its schedule has it leaving NYP on Friday afternoons and leaving RUT in the afternoon/evening on Sundays. From Rutland, you can connect to transportation to reach Killington/Pico and Okemo.

As for other trains, yes it would be nice to switch up the Vermonter's schedule to leave from NYP later on Fridays and leave later from Vermont on Sundays to accomodate weekend ski trips. Although the problem lies here partially with the elimination of the baggage car and the fact that the Vermonter is a train which originates in Washington DC. If it were cut back to, say, Penn Sta however, more schedule changes may be available. Also, the slow route through Massachusetts eats up a lot of time. If any of these problems were eliminated, the train's potential would grow grow grow.

As for a train from White River Jct north to Newport, I don't really see that happening on any regular basis, outside of special excursions. The current Amtrak timetable lists St Albans as also the stop for Jay Peak resort. Personally, I'm not sure why the Vermonter continues to St Albans, when it could terminate in Burlington (if the Burlington branch was upgraded).

I take the Vermonter from Waterbury VT to CT on a regular basis and would take it more often if it had a late Friday afternoon departure or had a quicker route through Mass. Still though, given the gas prices, its cheaper than driving my V8 guzzler down to CT.

Just my $.02

-Jay H.

If they had a friday afternoon train I would do weekend commutation to CT. they should have the vermonter stop at NYP or New Haven and make 2 trips in one day.... one train goes to burilington one train goes to Newport VT I think it be a cool Idea.to do this on fridays and sundays only...

shadyjay wrote:Technically, there is an Amtrak ski train called the Ethan Allen Express from NY-Penn up to Rutland VT, but via the Hudson Valley of NYS. Its schedule has it leaving NYP on Friday afternoons and leaving RUT in the afternoon/evening on Sundays. From Rutland, you can connect to transportation to reach Killington/Pico and Okemo.

As for other trains, yes it would be nice to switch up the Vermonter's schedule to leave from NYP later on Fridays and leave later from Vermont on Sundays to accomodate weekend ski trips. Although the problem lies here partially with the elimination of the baggage car and the fact that the Vermonter is a train which originates in Washington DC. If it were cut back to, say, Penn Sta however, more schedule changes may be available. Also, the slow route through Massachusetts eats up a lot of time. If any of these problems were eliminated, the train's potential would grow grow grow.

As for a train from White River Jct north to Newport, I don't really see that happening on any regular basis, outside of special excursions. The current Amtrak timetable lists St Albans as also the stop for Jay Peak resort. Personally, I'm not sure why the Vermonter continues to St Albans, when it could terminate in Burlington (if the Burlington branch was upgraded).

I take the Vermonter from Waterbury VT to CT on a regular basis and would take it more often if it had a late Friday afternoon departure or had a quicker route through Mass. Still though, given the gas prices, its cheaper than driving my V8 guzzler down to CT.

Just my $.02

-Jay H.

If they had a friday afternoon train I would do weekend commutation to CT. they should have the vermonter stop at NYP or New Haven and make 2 trips in one day.... one train goes to burilington one train goes to Newport VT I think it be a cool Idea to do this on fridays and sundays only...

shadyjay wrote:Technically, there is an Amtrak ski train called the Ethan Allen Express from NY-Penn up to Rutland VT, but via the Hudson Valley of NYS. Its schedule has it leaving NYP on Friday afternoons and leaving RUT in the afternoon/evening on Sundays. From Rutland, you can connect to transportation to reach Killington/Pico and Okemo.

As for other trains, yes it would be nice to switch up the Vermonter's schedule to leave from NYP later on Fridays and leave later from Vermont on Sundays to accomodate weekend ski trips. Although the problem lies here partially with the elimination of the baggage car and the fact that the Vermonter is a train which originates in Washington DC. If it were cut back to, say, Penn Sta however, more schedule changes may be available. Also, the slow route through Massachusetts eats up a lot of time. If any of these problems were eliminated, the train's potential would grow grow grow.

As for a train from White River Jct north to Newport, I don't really see that happening on any regular basis, outside of special excursions. The current Amtrak timetable lists St Albans as also the stop for Jay Peak resort. Personally, I'm not sure why the Vermonter continues to St Albans, when it could terminate in Burlington (if the Burlington branch was upgraded).

I take the Vermonter from Waterbury VT to CT on a regular basis and would take it more often if it had a late Friday afternoon departure or had a quicker route through Mass. Still though, given the gas prices, its cheaper than driving my V8 guzzler down to CT.

Just my $.02

-Jay H.

I have often thought that this idea could also be accomplished to some of the ski resorts in New Hampshire. It could happen one of two ways or even both.

The first and probably most probable is to use the Downeaster from Boston. Once it arrives at Portland, it could potentially head further on the Mountain Division. There is Mt. Cranmore in North Conway, Wildcat (within a van rides distance in Glen), Attitash, and Bretton Woods. All of them are along the ROW, except for the before mentioned Wildcat.

The other option is to rebuild the Conway Branch and head north from there, but at least, for the moment, the Mountain Divison has all of its tracks in place.

The only question on something like this happening, is there enough people who would take the train to justifiy the costs? It certainly is a good idea and appears to work on paper. Wasn't there a ski train that ran out of Portland, ME to Sunday River in the late 1980's, early 1990's. What happend to that? Did they have enough ridership to justify running it?

As an historical note, several amuesment parks, such as the old Whalom Park in Leominster (The Fitchburg and Leominster St. Ry.) and Canobie Park in Salem, NH (Mass. Northeastern St. Ry.), where built by the street car companies as a means to create a destination for its riders and add some revenue to the bottom line.

The only way ski trains of the various sorts proposed here will come back to northern New England is if a state government or private corporation comes up with the vast amount of money needed to rebuild deteriorated or in some cases out-of-service trackage to passenger train standards. Amtrak has much bigger thinsg to worry about at the moment, like basic survival. When the B&M ran ski trains to North Conway more than half a century ago, the line still had passenger service and was in decent shape. Same for the New Haven's ski trains to points along the Berkshire Division.

The issue is not so much whether you can fill up a train with skiers and pay the out-of-pocket cost of running it, because assuming you have the equipment -- not a trivial matter -- for a few weekends each winter you can. Rather, it's who picks up the tab for the tens of millions of dollars that would be required to cut down the trees growing between the rails and restore these lines to reasonable speeds. With the possible expection of the reasonably well-maintained StL&A (which ran the privately-sponsored Sunday River Ski Train), it's not likely to happen.

One New England amusement park is easily reached by train: Palace Playland at Old Orchard Beach.

eriemike wrote:I have often thought that this idea could also be accomplished to some of the ski resorts in New Hampshire. It could happen one of two ways or even both.

The first and probably most probable is to use the Downeaster from Boston. Once it arrives at Portland, it could potentially head further on the Mountain Division. There is Mt. Cranmore in North Conway, Wildcat (within a van rides distance in Glen), Attitash, and Bretton Woods. All of them are along the ROW, except for the before mentioned Wildcat.

The other option is to rebuild the Conway Branch and head north from there, but at least, for the moment, the Mountain Divison has all of its tracks in place.

The only question on something like this happening, is there enough people who would take the train to justifiy the costs? It certainly is a good idea and appears to work on paper. Wasn't there a ski train that ran out of Portland, ME to Sunday River in the late 1980's, early 1990's. What happend to that? Did they have enough ridership to justify running it?

As an historical note, several amuesment parks, such as the old Whalom Park in Leominster (The Fitchburg and Leominster St. Ry.) and Canobie Park in Salem, NH (Mass. Northeastern St. Ry.), where built by the street car companies as a means to create a destination for its riders and add some revenue to the bottom line.

Another are would be up near Fabian Station. There’s a few ski resorts near there as well. Not only that but you could have a ski train come out of St. Johnsbury, VT and head down the Mountain Division.

TomNelligan wrote:The only way ski trains of the various sorts proposed here will come back to northern New England is if a state government or private corporation comes up with the vast amount of money needed to rebuild deteriorated or in some cases out-of-service trackage to passenger train standards. Amtrak has much bigger thinsg to worry about at the moment, like basic survival. When the B&M ran ski trains to North Conway more than half a century ago, the line still had passenger service and was in decent shape. Same for the New Haven's ski trains to points along the Berkshire Division.

The issue is not so much whether you can fill up a train with skiers and pay the out-of-pocket cost of running it, because assuming you have the equipment -- not a trivial matter -- for a few weekends each winter you can. Rather, it's who picks up the tab for the tens of millions of dollars that would be required to cut down the trees growing between the rails and restore these lines to reasonable speeds. With the possible expection of the reasonably well-maintained StL&A (which ran the privately-sponsored Sunday River Ski Train), it's not likely to happen.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. It’s not a matter of who will ride it; it’s a matter of who will spend the money to rehab the lines for weekend, seasonal service. In hindsight it would have been nice if the railroads get them going because I think the rider ship would be pretty decent especially with the gas prices being so high. However at the time railroad were running out of money and they had to do what was more economical in the long run, because after all is a business and not all about keeping the rail shiny.

Nj trasit used to have a bus from trenton nj train station. great Idea, one problem didn't fit the train scedule that well. make 1 train that would serve for only amusement park customers orginating from the the new haven line thru penn (with no layover) and continues to like treton nj where you could take the bus the rest of the way. be a nice thing to try even if it was only once a year excursion

the same with the ski resorts. they should try a one time a year excursion to like okemo which the train goes thru the resort in Ludlow VT

what keeps the train companys/oranisations from trying these one year excursion type deals????

quote="Ron Newman"]One New England amusement park is easily reached by train: Palace Playland at Old Orchard Beach.[/quote]

Skiers come from a huge spread out area in New York and southern New
England. Skiers go to a number of spread out areas in Vermont and New
Hampshire. Skiers like to go at different times of the day and different
days of the week.
A passenger train to or from the Vermont resorts, when would it run, what
route would it use (there are only a couple of them to use) and finally
where would it start out and finish.
Chartered buses are the transportation of choice for organized ski clubs
from the New York City area to the ski areas to the north. Trains can NOT
compete in terms of convience, flexibility, cost or speed.
Even a one day fantrip/ski extra from Boston to Okemo or New York to
Okemo would not make any money for anyone and in fact probably could
not be done in one day.
This "pipe dream" has been discussed before but it is a NO GO.
Noel Weaver

So if that's true, why did ski trains used to be quite common? The resorts haven't moved.

I understand that the Denver-Winter Park ski train is quite popular.

Ski trains were common in the 30s and later because back then there was not the network of Interstate Highways that exists today, And families didn't all have cars at their disposal. Most of the lines involved already had passenger service, so trackage was in good shape, and the railroads had many extra cars to use for such service. None of this is true any longer. Things evolve!

Ron Newman wrote:I understand that the Denver-Winter Park ski train is quite popular.

It certainly is. There are at least four particular circumstances that make it both practical and successful:

1. The route it uses, the former Denver & Rio Grande RR mainline, is active passenger trackage that's in good shape and doesn't need any additional upgrading or maintenance just to accomodate the ski train.

2. A pool of dedicated equipment is available.

3. It's been running continuously for decades and thus has a regular customer base.

4. It's time competitive with winter driving from Denver to Winter Park on account of the extremely large Rocky mountain in between, which the railroad tunnels under and the highway goes over.

I think that Mr. Steam has already done a good job of answering your other question about why ski trains were common in New England in ancient times but aren't now.

Let me throw this thought out there and if the world were tilted towards an idealized one!

What if you not only have the ski trains in the winter, but utilize them during the other times of the year, such as special AMC/hiker's specials during the other three seasons. Especially in the White Mountains. You have the AMC owning the Crawford Notch Depot and the new bunk house there. Plus you could serve the other resorts such as the hotels in North Conway, Attitash in Bartlett, and the Mount Washington Hotel in Bretton Woods.

You market these rail/vacation/hiking packages to the New York and Boston and even Montreal areas. This makes a great alternative to the increasingly frustrating traffic going up Route 16 in North Conway. Maybe sub-contract these special trains to another rail company besides Amtrak that have the rolling stock, such as the Maine Eastern.

I know that the cost of rehabbing the current lines is what will prevent this from ever happening, but if the State of Maine is going to spend the kind of money on the Rockland Branch why would they not spend the money on rehabbing their portion of the Mountain Division? The State of New Hampshire spent the money relocating the Mountain Divison on the back side of North Conway, when they build the new by-pass road. Why would they do that, considering New Hampshire is currently not a pro-rail state.

Just some thoughts to chew on.