Silver Star Downgrade and Diner Discussion

gokeefe, I certainly agree that Arlington puts a lot of thought and time into his posts, and they are insightful; there's no doubt about that.

I think if you disagree with a point being made that the best way to respond is to further develop your case. I have done so for years in the Amtrak Downeaster thread in response to some very well written posts and posters who take certain positions. The outcome for me has been a very well developed point of view, that has nuance and depth of thought in regards to my support of passenger rail services to and from the State of Maine.

This thread has presented an opportunity for in depth discussion about very specific operational aspects of Amtrak that likely go undiscussed elsewhere. I want to see someone rise to the level of the conversation and present well developed counter arguments. Are there reasons that the Silver Star should remain "as is"? Would there be a loss to Amtrak and if so how much and of what nature?

These are important questions to ask. In my opinion a lot of strong points have been made in favor of an apparent impending change. What exactly that change is has not yet been confirmed. But I have found the resulting discussion to be very productive. It has also further strengthened in my mind certain considerations regarding potential future service to and from Maine.

gokeefe, there are several threads already about whether Southeastern LD trains should become coach-only. The topic has already been discussed ad nauseam by Arlington, and one thread was started just so that people could vote on whether or not those trains should become coach-only. (People voted against making them coach only.)

Can we please not have this thread repeat the battle that's already been fought: whether or not the Silver Star should become coach only? Can this thread please add information about what's currently happening--not what one person wants to happen?

According to this post, on Trainsmag forum, the sleepers should have been reinstated by now.

" Got this reply from a source at Trains.


Thank you for your inquiry, which was forwarded. Please see the following response author Bob Johnston:

(Amtrak spokesman) Marc Magliari told me that Silver Star sleeping car inventory has been temporarily withdrawn from Arrow “connected with equipment manipulation” and it will be put back for all departures within the next couple of days. No plans to drop the service."

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/245879.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Benton wrote:According to this post, on Trainsmag forum, the sleepers should have been reinstated by now

with "now" being the promised "next couple of days" from March 27th..but have not been (as of now, Sat, Apr 4th)

David Benton wrote:Got this reply from a source at Trains [dated March 27]
Thank you for your inquiry, which was forwarded. Please see the following response author Bob Johnston:
(Amtrak spokesman) Marc Magliari told me that Silver Star sleeping car inventory has been temporarily withdrawn from Arrow [Amtrak's reservation system] “connected with equipment manipulation” and it will be put back for all departures within the next couple of days. No plans to drop the service."
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/245879.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trains thread speculates too that the problem is diner un-availability (up for heavy maintenance or, more likely, retirement at a time when V-IIs should have been available), It'd still be consistent to say: if you found yourself short a pair of diners, and had to pick a service to pull diner service from (and concomitant sleepers, or reload them as business class) you'd do it where where it would have the least business impact, like a coach-heavy LD, and the greatest ability to re-accommodate diner-sleeper demand, the Silver Star would be still be a leading choice because math.

First - the rumours coming from people with any sort of credible sources does not say that sleepers will be dropped entirely from the Star. Apparently the plan being contemplated is to drop the diner and move one of the two sleepers to the Meteor. This is also consistent with Amtrak officially saying that the service will not be dropped (they have said nothing about downgrades). So discussing the Star as a coach-only train is so far just an interesting walk in fantasyland.

Second - Arlington keeps posting that dropping the Star altogether (which is nowhere in the cards. Coach seats are being sold 11 months out as usual) would save Amtrak 30 million $. This is very far from the truth. 30 million $ is the annual loss, true, but this includes a substantial allocated overhead, most of which will just have to be loaded onto the remaining trains i the Star vanishes, increasing their loss.

Now Amtrak doesn't publish exactly how large the overhead is, so it's anybody's guess. Others have tried to calculate it out of the little information that has been given, and has reached numbers that show that the east coast services more or less break even. So drop the Star and you will probably have eliminated nothing but ridership, bringing the loss per passenger up. Furthermore rail is much an economy of scale and one of the big problems of the LD's is that they must solely finance stations, crew bases, end point maintenance etc. Concerning the Meteor and the Star they're at least two trains to share this. Drop the Star and watch the costs on the Meteor surge...

That said, the rumoured changes if they come to be might be of some benefit to the bottom line. The silvers are in a unique position because they run roughly parallel, so that you can make one of them a low amenites train without loosing much ridership, as most of the passengers who want these can just choose the other train. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

trainviews wrote:Second - Arlington keeps posting that dropping the Star altogether... (

No, I don't. Most immediately, upthread, I've posted that based on the new-to-me NARP numbers, with Coach outselling Sleeper 368,000 to 30,000 and virtually no big-bucks markets running SC-Florida,b ut lots of intra-Florida traffic, it makes a lot of sense to run it the whole way as coach, as essentially two day trains one "ending" its *economic* day at CLB southbound, but, rather than idling in SAV and then turning north, it might as well roll to Florida and start its day as a Florida Day train and terminate in Miami.

And the focus on the diner is key. That's where the most deadly losses are. Taking the diner off putting "diner people" on the Meteor is fine. Having a new "no diner" sleeper seems also very much worth a try...basically a lot like the Business Class service that works so well on the Palmetto.

I think you're forgetting The Meteor does not serve Tampa directly. New York -Tampa is the star's biggest revenue segment.It would be interesting to know how many take the Meteor -thruway bus connection to Tampa as its 4 hours faster than the Star.
I think Amtrak is wise to look at the situation, the star's dogleg through South Carolina adds running time, with little ridership benefit. (apart from Raleigh).I think a daylight coach train as far as Savannah is a good idea on this route.( Split from the Carolinian at Raleigh?).Then the Star is a better service to Tampa, and possibly a day train from there to miami.

Good to have the site up!

As of today, there's still no sleeper availability on the Star (that I can find) after July 1

Even if it just runs for 1 full month without a diner, it'll be hugely helpful to see how its costs change in the Monthly Performance Report for that month. That's something we've never been able to isolate before. If it turns out to be several months, that's an awesome controlled experiment from which larger conclusions can be drawn.

The evidence that diners are the big expense (both food and staff), comes more from the food service reform hearings than directly from knowing diner costs vs sleeper costs (which we aren't' quite sure if they're in the "floor plate" (sq ft per fare dollar) or in the maintenance or in staffing).

Amtrak's new Spring/summer schedule leads one to believe there will be no change to the Silver Star. Otherwise Amtrak has issues with false advertising in numerous places on the schedule......

The Diner shortage that someone brought up - I find hard to believe as Amtrak put extras back in service when they were restored to the Lake Shore Limited....plus all Diners should be thawed out from the winter....the fact that CAF and Amtrak don't have new Viewliner Diners in service should have been re-calculated in the budget/re-forecast.

I don't know what to think with the whole issue other than it could be with "connections." The whole thing is just strange....

Amtrak just knows something we don't......

jp1822 wrote:Amtrak just knows something we don't......

As well they should!

I'm sure in due time the reason for this remarkably public experiment in the reservations system will become known.

As we have seen with Amtrak's financial performance improvements over the past few years they are better prepared and more capable than anyone else ever imagined possible. I have tremendous confidence in the company as a whole at the moment. They have made tremendous strides in an era when others have simply sputtered.

No doubt they were waiting for Railroad.net to resurface, to get our advice before making a decision.

jp1822 wrote:Amtrak's new Spring/summer schedule leads one to believe there will be no change to the Silver Star.

I'd say the signs point to no change in *timetable*, but some downgrading of what's physically on the train to match what's currently being sold (involving a downgrade in sleeper-diner service as traditionally understood)

jp1822 wrote:Otherwise Amtrak has issues with false advertising in numerous places on the schedule......

Who suffers, exactly? So there's no formal diner: what sort of meal promise does a coach ticket come with? Basically just: "you'll be able to buy something on the train for our famously high yet money-losing prices" The Palmetto makes good on that promise without a diner, and so can every ticket now being sold on the Star. And if a train gets retimed, that's pretty normal, not "false advertising". Happens all the time in air travel: flights modified, passengers notified, picky passengers rebooked.

As Gokeefe pointed out, Amtrak's terms don't guarantee a diner, and frankly, not selling sleeper tix isn't false at all...in fact, it is very up-front: our best guess is that the Silver Star isn't selling sleepers because it won't have a diner and may not even have room(ette)s (or it might, but they'd be Business Class.

And the thing about the Silver Star is back to the NARP profile (Page 8 of the PDF is that Silver Star has no distinctive overnight markets that are at risk of disappointing anyone who wants a sleeper. All those folks will be on the Meteor.

All of the top 20 markets (10 top revenue and 10 top passenger) are either:
1) NEC-Florida...that are being honestly told: book the Meteor if you want a sleeper; the Star is selling coach tickets
2) Intra-Florida...that are a great reason to keep the current timetable, but totally coach-centric markets that won't care for a diner, but will appreciate a train with more Corridor features & pricing
3) NEC-VA/NC/SC...that are being sold corridor-only tickets even now, and are all on the "day train" part of today's Star

Railfans freak at the thought of losing diners and sleepers, but it is really really hard to identify any significant Star ticket-holders who is going to care (those that do care are, today, being steered by the reservation system to book on the Meteor)

while I've never had an oustanding aramark meal they can and do provide better fare than what amtrak offers in its cafe. One of the problems with the cafe, IMO, is that it's just overpriced cheap stuff. everything clocks in around $8 or less. they'll sell you a dirt cheap garbage bagel but people opt to pay twice as much every day for a decent bagel. on longer trains they could start to sell higher priced items. fresh(er) roast beef sandwiches with real horseradish for $11 (just an example). you know, stuff with a born on date rather than a dead by date.

MODERATOR NOTEI

This thread is titled "Silver Star Downgrade" and is related to news of further Silver Star sleeper service. It is not another thread justifying sleepers or coach service. Please use the correct thread for such discussion.

PLEASE NOTE: If we abuse the notion of staying on topic and start having yes/no-sleeper wars in every thread, it can become a banned topic like Turboliners. That's how it happens - one or two people won't let something go and derail all the threads.

Topic locked for 24 hours.