Silver Lake Railroad

Officially We are not*** a business.. I stated that many post ago.. and this is what i can say.. I am clearly not understanding what you are trying to say, and you are clearly not understanding what I am trying to say.. Now could we stay on topic before we start offending people, and railroad operations, etc..... Thank you....

slrr1 wrote:Officially We are not*** a business.

You are soliciting passengers and charging them a fare for transportation. Money is being exchanged for services rendered. If that's not a business, I don't know what is.

Now could we stay on topic before we start offending people, and railroad operations, etc..... Thank you....

I'm not offended. Are you offended?

Otto, the railroad is by donation only but the donations (at least in 2007) were not mandatory. The best way I can describe it is this... One man happens to own an old railroad station and a portion of the track. With a lease agreement on the state owned track he was able to rehab the track, clear brush and offer rides. From what I gather, it’s just a man’s hobby and free will to offer a small ride at his expense. If people show up, great, if they don't, it’s no big loss.
Next time you’re in the area (Fryeburg), try to make a point to stop by. Ask question in person, it’s kind of hard to explain on a computer.

Thank you B&M 1566, that explains this very clearly... And we would like people to show up, that is the purpose of running... But if they don't, we are not loosing money... The ride is donation paid.. And you are right, this is very hard to explain.. And we operate the same set-up all 3 of our years of operation... SLRR is a nice place to see, and understand our operation before you criticize it.. Im not offended, but this argument is just ridiculous.....

So my original explanation was correct: This more of a private speeder club that has open houses rather than being a railroad museum or a tourist railroad. That explains why you don't advertise to the general public.

NO this is not a club for say, it is kind of all 3.. This is something you probably wont see anywhere else.. Its a group of friends.. aka. volunteers, who run a museum and donation paid train ride.. we do slightly advertise in the NH tourist book, and on RTE 16 in Whittier NH, with out spending lots of $$$ on advertising... We are a railroad, but not a business, due to the free donation paid train ride... If people want to help out, they come to us, and ask or w.e. , and we pretty much say sure.. I became involved with SLRR by continually taking train rides.. We have a really Scenic 3.5 mile stretch of track.. When the RR first came about, the owner almost bought a 44 tonner, but due to tie conditions, the value<expense per mile, so restoration to run a 44 tonner was not worth it... At some point, maybe 2002-2004 Cotton Valley came to ride the rails.... Bruce Stewart met the owner Neil Underwood because Bruce (trail master) needed permission to use Neil's owned 400 ft. stretch of mainline, and through Bruce's knowledge of Gang cars and such, the "mini-full sized railroad" came about. We have many of Bruce's Cotton Valley, and other friends come for jobs that need more man power (ie. replacing track, replacing switch ties.. next few weeks sometime, mowing, etc.), along with the 3 other consistent volunteers, of Steve, Peter, and me Will... Basically Bruce, and I do the track work, and Neil and Peter work on the station and trains, and we switch off from time to time, but we all come together for the hard jobs, along with other recruits that i mentioned before... It does not cost anything to join in, as this is not a club, yet a group of guys/friends/friends of friends having a good time, restoring old things, and getting together to make people happy, and to give people a nice 45 minute 6.5 mile round trip train ride... That is the best I can explain this RR on the computer... my best suggestion, if you really want to understand how this RR works (and have an enjoyable 45 minute free-donation paid train ride), come visit us, and talk to Bruce, Neil, and I.... SAT. and SUN. 12, 1, 2, 3 weather permitting.... That is our schedule... Bottom line.. We all love trains, and this is our own way of showing it... Does that help?, and is there anything else I can explain?


-Will-

And not only that, but there aren't any speeders on the property..1 A-4, 1 Trolley(for say), 3 A-6's (one is in Bruces garage though), and 1 large A-8.. none of which are classified as speeders.. at 220 hp for the A-6; the workhorse's of our "small fleet"; they are like a small scale engine.. perfect for our "mini- full sized railroad"

slrr1 wrote:And not only that, but there aren't any speeders on the property..1 A-4, 1 Trolley(for say), 3 A-6's (one is in Bruces garage though), and 1 large A-8.. none of which are classified as speeders.. at 220 hp for the A-6; the workhorse's of our "small fleet"; they are like a small scale engine.. perfect for our "mini- full sized railroad"

Are any of the standard gauge switching locomotives on the property capable of running? I know they aren't used for excursion service, but are any of them in operable condition?

slrr1 wrote:Thank you B&M 1566, that explains this very clearly... And we would like people to show up, that is the purpose of running... But if they don't, we are not loosing money... The ride is donation paid.. And you are right, this is very hard to explain.. And we operate the same set-up all 3 of our years of operation... SLRR is a nice place to see, and understand our operation before you criticize it.. Im not offended, but this argument is just ridiculous.....

There is no argument! You just happen to grab the attention of people who are not from the area and are trying to figure out this "little railroad".

Its a group of friends... aka. volunteers, who run a museum and donation paid train ride.

That's cool that you have a museum. What are you a museum of? Antique equipment? Restored depot? Local history?

We are a railroad, but not a business, due to the free donation paid train ride.

Er, that's not quite right. You handle cash. It makes you a business. If people are indeed making a voluntary donation to ride the train, are their donations tax-exempt? Is the railroad registered as a non-profit? Can't be free and request a donation at the same time.

We have a really Scenic 3.5 mile stretch of track.

So I hear! I haven't heard anyone say to the contrary, in fact.

It does not cost anything to join in, as this is not a club, yet a group of guys/friends/friends of friends having a good time, restoring old things, and getting together to make people happy, and to give people a nice 45 minute 6.5 mile round trip train ride.

Sounds like you have a lot of dedicated volunteers. You keep shrugging it off, but you're all affiliated somehow. Affiliations and labels are not bad things. It helps people identify your activities. For instance, I'm a member of the Rochester Chapter NRHS. We operate the Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum. People pay a fee to ride our trains and tour our exhibits. We advertise our museum as an activity of the Chapter. We don't advertise ourselves as a railroad. It sounds like splitting hairs, but each name means something to the public, to the railfans, and to the government. What's more, as members of the Chapter/museum, we're all covered under the group's general liability policy, as are our visitors. All very important things to consider when operating an attraction of that nature.

Is there anything else I can explain?

Yes. It seems to me that if you had more visitors making a donation to ride, you would have more funds to continue rehabilitation efforts. Yet you tell me you don't want to turn away crowds of people. Conventional logic dictates you put the word out there, attract as many people as you can, because more visitors means more funds. Don't be afraid to attract the public, get them through the door, then deal with the "crowds" when they show up.

It sounds like you have some pull over there, Will. I'm trying to work with you to identify what could be possible issues that would prevent your group from moving forward.

Im going to attempt to answer these questions in the order they come.

RedLantern wrote:Are any of the standard gauge switching locomotives on the property capable of running? I know they aren't used for excursion service, but are any of them in operable condition?

I am honestly not sure. I will Talk to bruce later today, and answer then.. But I don not believe so, they are all old gas powered engines, along with the 1917 porter.

Otto Vondrak wrote:That's cool that you have a museum. What are you a museum of? Antique equipment? Restored depot? Local history?

Ya it is.. haha.. We have a museum.. Antique equipment is scattered around the property, and a small indoor restored station as a museum with pictures, and artifacts, along with a mini-theater.. There is also a sterling diner on the property.. Hopefully that will be running by July 4th weekend next year as an antique ice cream parlor, with equipment from 40-50 years ago.. We wanted it to be open for this years operation, but we just didn't have the time due to beaver damns, 2 washouts from beaver dams (small scale washouts), an extended line, which is not open quite yet... and mowing and getting everything ready to operate...

Otto Vondrak wrote: Er, that's not quite right. You handle cash. It makes you a business. If people are indeed making a voluntary donation to ride the train, are their donations tax-exempt? Is the railroad registered as a non-profit? Can't be free and request a donation at the same time.

Im not sure all of the logistics of our money flow, but we are non-profit, but as I hear we make enough to pay for the insurance, and the gas for the train.. And on special events we give the donations to the town.. ie. Madison Old Homes Weekend, Halloween Event, where the town throws a tea party in our garden, and on Halloween Rides, The town provides the entertainment... last year a situation occurred, which I am not allowed to explain, but the town has ruled that WE ARE NOT a business... You do not have to donate, but we welcome donations, and I don't believe there is tax involved, but I run the trains, Neil the owner takes care of the money, so i'd ask him.

Otto Vondrak wrote: It seems to me that if you had more visitors making a donation to ride, you would have more funds to continue rehabilitation efforts. Yet you tell me you don't want to turn away crowds of people. Conventional logic dictates you put the word out there, attract as many people as you can, because more visitors means more funds. Don't be afraid to attract the public, get them through the door, then deal with the "crowds" when they show up.

Yes but our capacity is 40 people per ride, and were not going to shuffle through the siding, and as of now broken switch, and 2-in. tight gauge to get another car to let more people ride.... Money is not really our concern, we change ridership levels for every run and we have had 1 full train already in our 8 runs this season.. We have specific reasons as to why it is donation paid, but Neil Underwood (the owner) will never see back what he has put into this railroad in terms of profit.. They don't want to spend $ on marketing, and then say.. Sorry we're full; you cant come. The next thing we have to do is put the trolley on the tracks... That way if we have an overfill, and have to turn people away, I can stay at the station, and let the train take its run, and hold people off on the trolley until the next run.. Thats another point of the ice-cream parlor also.. To give people something to do in-between. Again... Im trying the best I can, but I'm not the person to answer this question, you would have to talk to Bruce, or Neil. We are trying to also get everything done.. As of now, the line is not finished, neither is the ice cream parlor, and a lot of other small jobs needed to be finished.. Now i may seem to change answers frequently, but I guess the real reason would be this.. Capacity, $, and when the line, and station area is complete.. We are advertising more and more each year, this year we are in the NH travel guide or some other brochure. Maybe we will advertise better when we have the second train, the ice-cream, and completed the line.. All I can say is that I really do not have a say in this, I'm just trying to refer to you what I have heard, but let's see what 1-2-3 years down the road, maybe we will have a marketing campaign..

***BTW you can call SLRR what you want, but as of everyone here, we call it a railroad.

slrr1 wrote:We have a museum.. Antique equipment is scattered around the property, and a small indoor restored station as a museum with pictures, and artifacts, along with a mini-theater.. There is also a sterling diner on the property.. Hopefully that will be running by July 4th weekend next year as an antique ice cream parlor, with equipment from 40-50 years ago.

See, that's cool. If you simply called yourselves the "Silver Lake Railroad Museum" and mentioned all these additional attractions, you'd have an accurate description of what it is you all do. Come see our stuff, enjoy a short scenic ride.

Otto Vondrak wrote:Im not sure all of the logistics of our money flow, but we are non-profit, but as I hear we make enough to pay for the insurance, and the gas for the train.

I don't think you understand from a legal standpoint what "non-profit" status is, but I understand when you tell me that you appear to make enough money to cover your costs and break even. But "non-profit" status doesn't mean that you turned a profit or not. It's a legal designation created for tax purposes.

last year a situation occurred, which I am not allowed to explain, but the town has ruled that WE ARE NOT a business.

Okay, so if you're not a business, what are you? What does the town call you?

Yes but our capacity is 40 people per ride

Our two track cars up in Rochester have even less capacity than that. Have you had more than 40 people show up for a ride? We're lucky if we get 40 people per day. Do you run more than one time a day? If you make multiple runs throughout the day, it doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility that if the 1:00 run is sold out, folks could come back for the 2:00 run, etc. We do this when we sell out space on our track cars, we offer a ticket on the next ride, and folks pass the time looking at the exhibits.

Money is not really our concern

Money is everyone's concern, let's not pretend to be altruistic here. The SLRR has expenses, and the owner should expect to cover them in part from the farebox.

We have specific reasons as to why it is donation paid, but Neil Underwood (the owner) will never see back what he has put into this railroad in terms of profit.

Uh... why not? I would expect he would want to recoup some of his expenses... and that doesn't make him a bad person, either.

They don't want to spend $ on marketing, and then say, "Sorry we're full; you cant come."

Right... same as above. You run more than once a day, right? And I keep asking you, has this "Sorry, we're full" problem come up before?

-otto-

I haven't yet had the chance to ride it, but I have visited the property a few times and talked with the owner once. As I understand it, it's a private collection on private property. I guess it would fall under the category of a farmer on a private non-operating farm who gives hayrides for free to the general public and essentially has a "tip jar" for anyone who wants to help him out.

This would be essentially the same type of operation except that the hayride is on tracks. The train is a large Fairmont track speeder with homemade cars connected on both ends of it with the speeder in the middle acting as the motive power. The cars are simply steel frame platforms mounted on trailer axles with park benches and a canopy. They have road trailer brakes on the cars which are connected to brake controllers on the speeder.

I'm only calling it a speeder because I can't think of a better way to describe it, it is a very big Fairmont track car but would not likely be capable of moving standard railroad cars (maybe it could move an empty, but it does not have standard couplers and doesn't appear that it ever did), so although it functions as a locomotive for this operation, it would not be considered a locomotive by the FRA.

As was stated before, the owner will most likely never break even on what he put down for this, it is clearly not an investment. The cars have a donation box on the side of the car which functions more as a tip jar which helps the owner pay for fuel and other expenses, but is by far not considered to be supporting the operation as it is supported out of the owner's pocket.

I am not affiliated with this operation (although I did offer to volunteer a few years ago, before they started operating). I'm just trying to come up with a better explanation to try and help make this thread more understandable.

Thank you Red-Lantern... Like he said, the conversation between otto and I is getting pointless, and I don't care who is correct, I just work there and try to answer questions.......... This is also getting quite confusing for me, and I'm in the middle of it!.. It is something you have to see before you judge it...

RedLantern wrote:I am not affiliated with this operation (although I did offer to volunteer a few years ago, before they started operating).

What happened anyways?

*** FYI... The reason we cant cross roads with loaded trains is because we do not fall under FRA standards... To cross, we need to fall under standards, and become a "Real/full-sized railroad", with nuckle couplers, etc.

slrr1 wrote:Thank you Red-Lantern... Like he said, the conversation between otto and I is getting pointless, and I don't care who is correct, I just work there and try to answer questions.......... This is also getting quite confusing for me, and I'm in the middle of it!.. It is something you have to see before you judge it...

RedLantern wrote:I am not affiliated with this operation (although I did offer to volunteer a few years ago, before they started operating).

What happened anyways?

*** FYI... The reason we cant cross roads with loaded trains is because we do not fall under FRA standards... To cross, we need to fall under standards, and become a "Real/full-sized railroad", with nuckle couplers, etc.

I was living in Tuftonboro at the time (I've since moved back to Mass) and I dropped off a business card right about the time when they were first starting on track work. During the winter after that, I lost my cellphone and had to get a new one, and a new number, so the number on the card was no longer useful. I was really looking for a job at the time since I saw the switcher engines before the current train and was going to be a regular FRA-style railroad.

By the way, as far as not being allowed to cross roads, does this mean your consist could never cross the road, or just that it can't while carrying passengers?