SEPTA Cross County Pass is a real pain in my ***

I'm not qualified to talk about the CC pass but your experience with misinformed personnel isn't unique. SEPTA's current system is so ridiculously contorted that even knowledgeable people have difficulty figuring it out. Is there any info on the website, particularly a set of instructions from the trip planner than you could print and carry with you?

FWIW I had a bus driver tell me tokens weren't valid in conjunction with buying a transfer. Instead of a token for the base fare and $1 for the transfer he insisted on the (then) $2 one-way cash (i.e. "sucker") fare plus the extra dollar for a transfer. I waited for another bus....

jesus, dude. i read that three times and i;m still not sure i get it.

JeffK wrote:I'm not qualified to talk about the CC pass but your experience with misinformed personnel isn't unique. SEPTA's current system is so ridiculously contorted that even knowledgeable people have difficulty figuring it out. Is there any info on the website, particularly a set of instructions from the trip planner than you could print and carry with you?

FWIW I had a bus driver tell me tokens weren't valid in conjunction with buying a transfer. Instead of a token for the base fare and $1 for the transfer he insisted on the (then) $2 one-way cash (i.e. "sucker") fare plus the extra dollar for a transfer. I waited for another bus....

The bus driver is surprising, that fare structure is simpler. But on RR, yeah. I had a conductor tell me the CC pass isn't valid on weekends. The website says it is, and I hadn't had problems before. He must have been confusing it with the intermediate pass, which is not good on weekends. I don't know if he realized his mistake, but after a few moments he said he'd let it slide.

Another thing I've seen is ticket window staff sell independence passes to passengers who board trains that arrive in the city before 9:30 or whatever the rule is. I think it's reasonable to assume that if a person is buying a train ticket 8 minutes before the train arrives, that person intends to board that train. Well she sold it to the passenger anyway. Five minutes later, on the train, the conductor won't accept that. Now of course in this case the train crew member is correct, but another septa employee has just sold that person the ticket a few minutes earlier. The employees should be required to have correct knowledge of the fare rules. If a passenger is given incorrect information by a septa employee and he pays for a fare based on that, that passenger should be allowed to ride to his destination.

Interesting. Since the Cross-County Pass is "valid for travel in any direction on any regularly scheduled Suburban transit route, or regional rail service, operating outside the City of Philadelphia", I would have bought a via-CCP ticket (http://www.septa.org/fares/ticket/via.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) ($5.50 or $6) to cover the Melrose Park-Darby portion of that regional rail trip. Good to know a single CCP/1 ticket ($4.75 or $6) works, too. The conductor who wanted you to buy two CCP/1 tickets is rare, but in NJ I encountered a small number of train crew who, faced with a multi-leg trip, believe that you need a separate one-way ticket for each leg.

I can see your frustration, I can also see the confusion this scenario creates for both the rider and the employee, for the rider it's cut and dry how you see it, for the employee they don't see it very often so when faced with it there is confusion, now down to the ticket you need for the portion in between I would have to say the via ticket is the applicable one, why because your cross county is valid up until zone one, not into CCP, it doesn't become valid again until zone one, ie the first station in that zone, it is not valid from the last CCP station, the pass validates travel to the last station where you are technically to get off as you can travel no further, for travel from that zone one station is the ticket that then applies until your pass becomes valid again ie, boarding at the zone one station on the other side, A CCP ticket isn't correct as that ticket is for boarding at a CCP station and getting off at a CCP station.

This will all be so much easier when NPT is up and running......

I think we can expect a whole new set of frustrations when NPT goes into effect. Oh well, they say a change is as good as a rest ...

this might seem a bit simplistic, but why can't they just base fares on rr distance traveled, and if two lines are used it takes two separate ticket punches? ie going from bristol on the trenton line to downingtown on the paoli-thorndale you get charged $.25 or something for every stationed passed?

60 Car wrote:This will all be so much easier when NPT is up and running......

ExCon90 wrote:I think we can expect a whole new set of frustrations when NPT goes into effect.

I gotta agree with ExCon90. Unless NPT includes wholesale elimination of the inconsistencies and "gotchas" that have accumulated in the tariffs things could actually be worse. At least now when there's a misinterpretation / misunderstanding it occurs at the time of payment. NPT would be less transparent: if you made some kind of non-standard (in SEPTA's view) trip you wouldn't be able to figure out what happened until you had a chance to review your account electronically, if then.

jtaeffner wrote:this might seem a bit simplistic, but why can't they just base fares on rr distance traveled, and if two lines are used it takes two separate ticket punches?

Or maybe base it on boarding and ending points regardless of whether or where you're transferring. That ought to be straightforward with tag-on/tag-off and eliminates the problems arising from SEPTA's fixation with someone making a CC stopover. Yes, it would require defining a huge number of possible combinations* but once established they'd be accessible at the push of a button.

(*) [math_geek_at_work] N items selected pairwise without respect to order will produce (N^2 - N)/2 combinations. SEPTA currently has 153 stations so the matrix would have 11628 elements [/math_geek_at_work]

There is a easier way to avoid alot of your issues: Buy a Zone 3 Trailpass. Its a anywhere pass on all buses and heavy/light rails and it still retains its ANYWHERE privileges on all off peak trains (even if you catch the train back, that pass will get you from Lansdale (Zone 4) to Crum Lynn and the conductors will just nod.)

redarrow5591 wrote:There is a easier way to avoid alot of your issues: Buy a Zone 3 Trailpass. Its a anywhere pass on all buses and heavy/light rails and it still retains its ANYWHERE privileges on all off peak trains (even if you catch the train back, that pass will get you from Lansdale (Zone 4) to Crum Lynn and the conductors will just nod.)

RA: I will agree with that - a Zone 3 pass and its off-peak Anywhere privileges is worth looking into as compared to a Cross County Pass...

For the time you ride and the zones that you cover a Zone 3 pass would be perfect - and much more flexible...

The CC pass is currently $109.00 and the Zone 3 pass is $163.00 - just do some math on how much you travel via CCP...

MACTRAXX

loufah wrote:Interesting. Since the Cross-County Pass is "valid for travel in any direction on any regularly scheduled Suburban transit route, or regional rail service, operating outside the City of Philadelphia", I would have bought a via-CCP ticket (http://www.septa.org/fares/ticket/via.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) ($5.50 or $6) to cover the Melrose Park-Darby portion of that regional rail trip. Good to know a single CCP/1 ticket ($4.75 or $6) works, too. The conductor who wanted you to buy two CCP/1 tickets is rare, but in NJ I encountered a small number of train crew who, faced with a multi-leg trip, believe that you need a separate one-way ticket for each leg.

Loufah and Everyone: I just discovered something here with SEPTA's posting of the via CCP fares: They are the OLD TARIFF and do NOT reflect the current via CCP
fare which is a flat fare of $8.50 prepaid and $10 on board regardless of the stations traveled...This is bound to confuse riders and should be pointed out to SEPTA...

MACTRAXX

kiha40 wrote:

JeffK wrote:I'm not qualified to talk about the CC pass but your experience with misinformed personnel isn't unique. SEPTA's current system is so ridiculously contorted that even knowledgeable people have difficulty figuring it out. Is there any info on the website, particularly a set of instructions from the trip planner than you could print and carry with you?

FWIW I had a bus driver tell me tokens weren't valid in conjunction with buying a transfer. Instead of a token for the base fare and $1 for the transfer he insisted on the (then) $2 one-way cash (i.e. "sucker") fare plus the extra dollar for a transfer. I waited for another bus....

The bus driver is surprising, that fare structure is simpler. But on RR, yeah. I had a conductor tell me the CC pass isn't valid on weekends. The website says it is, and I hadn't had problems before. He must have been confusing it with the intermediate pass, which is not good on weekends. I don't know if he realized his mistake, but after a few moments he said he'd let it slide.

Another thing I've seen is ticket window staff sell independence passes to passengers who board trains that arrive in the city before 9:30 or whatever the rule is. I think it's reasonable to assume that if a person is buying a train ticket 8 minutes before the train arrives, that person intends to board that train. Well she sold it to the passenger anyway. Five minutes later, on the train, the conductor won't accept that. Now of course in this case the train crew member is correct, but another septa employee has just sold that person the ticket a few minutes earlier. The employees should be required to have correct knowledge of the fare rules. If a passenger is given incorrect information by a septa employee and he pays for a fare based on that, that passenger should be allowed to ride to his destination.

K and JK: Answering some questions posted:

1-The old Intermediate Pass was also valid at all times - just between the zones/stations listed and had no weekend "Anywhere" privileges...

2-Most Ticket Clerks are NOT SEPTA employees - they are employed by the Edens Corporation which handles SEPTA RRD ticket sales under contract...
In the case of a Independence Pass used before 9:30am on a peak train to CCP they should offer the option of paying a surcharge of $5 similar to what is
to be collected to and from Zone NJ Stations Trenton and West Trenton instead of flat out not honoring the pass - in that case I would get off at the next
station if practical and wait for a train arriving CCP after 9:30am...

3-I would have noted the route and bus if possible and contacted SEPTA Customer Service concerning the driver that would not issue a transfer
using a token for the base fare...

4-NPT is bound to create its whole set of challenges when it comes to SEPTA fares and just the proposed "cap" on Weekly and Monthly Passes
is something to think about...

MACTRAXX

thejax wrote:It doesn't seem fair that I can use my Cross County Pass in the city on the bus or subway for an additional $0.50 per leg, unless there is a free transfer, yet I have to pay full price to travel between Zone 1 and CCP like a regular rider. Isn't the whole concept of the pass is for free unlimited travel within the passes travel terms and discounted travel on other non-covered travel within that transit authority's network?

I don't know SEPTA's thinking, but consider how NJT's passes work:

If you want to extend your journey beyond a rail pass's validity area, you pay for a 1-way ticket between the old destination and the new destination. In some cases, if the endpoints are major terminals, you instead pay a "change in terminal" fee that is slightly discounted compared to a 1-way ticket. If you want to transfer to or from a bus or light rail, it is free with your rail pass, up to a certain number of zones, based on the price of your rail pass. (In past years, a rail pass entitled you to half fare on the first zone of a connecting bus.)

A NJT bus or light rail pass doesn't entitle the holder to any discount on rail fares. There are discounts for light rail in combination with a connecting bus.

So the overall rationale is that a rail pass gets you a discount on feeder fares, but not on any extended rail trip, and a transit (bus or light rail) pass gets you a discount on connecting transit.

It looks like SEPTA might have the same rationale with the Cross County pass.

Limited-Clear wrote:I can see your frustration, I can also see the confusion this scenario creates for both the rider and the employee, for the rider it's cut and dry how you see it, for the employee they don't see it very often so when faced with it there is confusion, now down to the ticket you need for the portion in between I would have to say the via ticket is the applicable one, why because your cross county is valid up until zone one, not into CCP, it doesn't become valid again until zone one, ie the first station in that zone, it is not valid from the last CCP station, the pass validates travel to the last station where you are technically to get off as you can travel no further, for travel from that zone one station is the ticket that then applies until your pass becomes valid again ie, boarding at the zone one station on the other side, A CCP ticket isn't correct as that ticket is for boarding at a CCP station and getting off at a CCP station.

This is understandably quite confusing. It's even more aggravating that the Fare Brochures don't seem to mention "via Center City Travel" at all. I think Limited-Clear is right that you have to buy the via Center City tickets at $8.50 in advance, $9 on board. The Regional Rail Fare system has always been so frustrating, though.

Maybe a Zone 1 Trailpass with a bunch of $3.50 Intermediate Tickets may be an easier option, but I don't know how much you take the Lansdale Line, so that may end up being cost prohibitive.