Discussion related to commuter rail and transit operators in California past and present including Los Angeles Metrolink and Metro Subway and Light Rail, San Diego Coaster, Sprinter and MTS Trolley, Altamont Commuter Express (Stockton), Caltrain and MUNI (San Francisco), Sacramento RTD Light Rail, and others...

Moderator: lensovet

  by kaiserworks
 
I say "forgotten", because many other transit agencies seem to always be in the news, especially when the nationwide debate comes up for new rail lines; Trax, Tri-met and DART seem to be the only examples given.

In many ways southern California, and San Diego in particular, presented what was thought to be insurmountable hurdles for modern rail transit. After all, aren't we the home of the "car culture" and have a metro geographic area spread out from horizon to horizon? In 1981, the city leaders took the first light rail step in the country. Many predicted failure. While not overnight success, the trolley slowly and with precision extended its reach and service over the last twenty-five years until its present form, which is an integral part of the city fabric, a recognized city icon (the signature red trolley livery), as well as a useful and highly beneficial transportation option.

San Diegans did come out of their cars. Unlike some transit pro and con arguements, it was not an all-or-nothing choice. Using myself as an example: I take the trolley to work two or three times a week; the other days, I use the car because of out-of-the-way errands I need to run. I feel most use the trolley in this way. As for sports, special events and commuting for college students, the trolley has become more of a first choice and the car relegated to second (because of parking and traffic).

Some quick trolley facts:
  • It's called a trolley because of some street-running, but it's really light rail!
  • Three lines with almost 60 miles of service (a fourth 11-mile line under study)
  • Mix of old Düwag/Siemens rolling stock with some new S70 units.
  • Service from 5 am til 2:30 am with all-night trains on Saturdays.
Trolley-related facts:
  • 1.3 million in San Diego with 3 million total residents including surrounding areas.
  • FRA commuter rail "Coaster" and Amtrak running 22 to 25 trains a day and expanding the number of cars on each train. I remember Coaster trains having three cars and an engine; now four to five double-deckers are the norm
  • San Diego county now opening a connecting 22-mile DMU-only line, the "Sprinter"
What the SD trolley did right (a lesson to other cities).
  • A downtown SD circulator-type rail layout hitting the main tourist areas, convention center, nightlife/resteraunts, city government buildings, baseball stadium, Santa Fe station link with local commuter rail and Amtrak and (forgive me) bus lines, yuck!
  • Direct service to the international border.
  • Branch lines that run through historic neighborhoods such as Little Italy and serve the Navy base and shipyards.
  • Direct service to colleges and major universities (a subway and station going right under the SD State campus),
  • Stops at many outlying stations that have HUGE PARKING CAPACITY for commuters
  • Stops in low-income and older neighborhoods
  • Direct service to the football stadium which through the week uses its parking lots for commuters boarding the trolley
To have a trolley system work, it must go where it will serve the public. I know many areas do a trolley on the cheap by using older rail lines as ROW (SD did this in some areas too) but even though they save money in the short term, they doom themselves in the long run. Did SD have to build a subway under San Diego State University (40,000 students and hardly any parking) and put a stop there? No—they could have done it on the cheap, avoided the extra bridges and put a stop accross the highway and had a shuttle bus to campus. Thankfully they didn't, because it would be DOOMED to FAILURE instead of success.

Where San Diego Trolley went wrong
  • No direct service to the airport—big mistake!
  • During the 1980s and early 1990s, when real estate in some older neighborhoods was cheap(er), SD could have installed some actual trolleys (like Portland) through various areas of the city with connections to light rail "SD trolley". Over the last ten years, those blighted areas have gone through a boom of residential and commercial building and the asssociated traffic snarls and hence now the real estate and infrastructure is too pricey for such infrastruction changes…but hindsight is always 20/20.
  • The system is double-tracked, but at its current extent, it could have used some triple-tracking for "express" service in some areas.
  • Failure to extend the trolley up the I-15 corridor during installation of HOV lanes.
  • Failure to extend the platforms at some stations to accomodate four-car trains during special events and peak service. (again 20/20)
Please feel free to add any comments if you are familar with the SD trolley.

Perhaps we can emerge from the shadows as one of the most successful North American urban transit experiments of the last twenty-five years. The system has actually broke even in dollars and cents; my only fear is that it wasn't ambitious or far reaching enough in its scope, but for a system that was supposed to be a failure in 1981, it has made the critics eat their words.

  by CHIP72
 
I was out in San Diego in late July to see a couple Phillies/Padres games. My brother and I used the SD Trolley for both games we attended. It's a nice system, and sort of reminded me of the Baltimore light rail. I agree that the connections to some of the key intermodal centers in the region, like Santa Fe Depot and El Cajon Transit Center, is a real positive of the system. The one thing that I didn't like was there isn't much true, transit-oriented development near the stations (or at least the Orange Line); most stations appear to be very park-and-ride oriented. Still, it is a nice system, and it was obvious that a lot of Padres fans (and presumably Chargers fans) use the light rail to get to games. I know Padres really play up using public transit on their website.

On a mostly unrelated note, Santa Fe Depot really surprised me. It's a nice station inside and out, relatively small, but the big surprise was the rail lines (i.e. Amtrak and MTS Coaster lines) were at-grade outside the station. That is unheard of at significant stations in the East, and I'm not just talking about the NY Penn Stations, Phila 30th Street Stations, and DC Union Stations of the world, I'm talking about the Harrisburgs and Lancasters of the world too.

  by kaiserworks
 
CHIP72 wrote:The one thing that I didn't like was there isn't much true, transit-oriented development near the stations (or at least the Orange Line); most stations appear to be very park-and-ride oriented.
Very true; the Orange Line was originally freight (freight still runs at night and on some surface streets) and travels through some less savory neighborhoods. The Green Line goes through Mission Valley, directly through malls, colleges and shopping as does the circulator in Downtown.
CHIP72 wrote:Santa Fe Depot really surprised me. It's a nice station inside and out, relatively small, but the big surprise was the rail lines (i.e. Amtrak and MTS Coaster lines) were at-grade outside the station. That is unheard of at significant stations in the East
Santa Fe depot is a Spanish Colonial, restored gem from Santa Fe's heyday. The tracks are at grade simply because they are almost right at sea level from the SF depot through downtown to the harbor areas in the south. To bury them would be an engineering nightmare. Elevated tracks would block views of the bay in a tourist area. The expense would also be prohibitive. All those grade crossings are a pain at times for average folks, but since I'm a railfan, I secretly enjoy getting held up at a crossing by trains and trolleys.

  by ljeppson
 
You're right. The San Diego trolley was a rousing success before UTA amounted to much of anything, and in Southern California no less. We forget these things and fail to keep them in focus. Thanks for remiding us.

  by gprimr1
 
Parking is the key. The biggest mistake Baltimore made was assuming that people would take buses from their homes to the light rail stops. Most stops have less than 100 spaces.

I really do like the trolly.

  by MACTRAXX
 
GP: I will also bet in SD you never had NIMBY opposition to light rail stations like the residents of Ruxton,MD-who probably now realize that criminals would more than likely not take light rail to cause problems and the fact that good transit access increases-in some cases substantially-the value of their homes! I also feel that walk-on ridership in a transit-friendly village is just as important as huge parking lots! MACTRAXX

  by CHIP72
 
MACTRAXX wrote:GP: I will also bet in SD you never had NIMBY opposition to light rail stations like the residents of Ruxton,MD-who probably now realize that criminals would more than likely not take light rail to cause problems and the fact that good transit access increases-in some cases substantially-the value of their homes! I also feel that walk-on ridership in a transit-friendly village is just as important as huge parking lots! MACTRAXX
I think walk-on ridership is MORE important than huge parking lots! Unless you live in a very congested area where driving into/out of the city is a real pain, people aren't going to want to change modes, whether it be from bus to rail or car to rail (or car to bus) to use public transit. It takes longer and is more inconvenient; people will just stay in their cars and drive. If you have locations near stations that are walkable and have a high number of residents nearby (and preferably a decent number of jobs nearby too), then transit becomes a much more attractive option than driving because the travel time is comparable to a car, if not less, and the cost of travel is significantly less.

I agree that the communities along the northern portion of the Baltimore light rail line that fought against having stations within walking distance had to have their heads in the sand. I personally LOVE to have that kind of transportation convenience nearby (that includes good access to major highways too).

  by Otto Vondrak
 
[moved to California Commuter & Transit for better exposure - omv]
  by neroden
 
Rode it a few weeks ago on a visit.

Problems:

(1) High-floor cars with low-floor stations. The wheelchair lifts do work, and are certainly as good or better than on buses, but I was surprised that they didn't have the now-standard 70% or 100% low-floor vehicles. I assume this is because the cars were ordered before this became standard.

(2) Slightly odd line routing choices. To get from Mission Valley to the Convention Center you have to change lines *twice*. The tracks allow for direct service!

(3) Doesn't go everywhere one would like it to. Special priorities would be La Jolla/UCSD (which is in planning), and Balboa Park, the single biggest tourist destination in San Diego (which isn't being planned, but would be a fairly logical extension from one of the existing center-city lines).

Virtues:

Oh, pretty much everything else. :-) It's a nice system.
  by kaiserworks
 
neroden wrote:Rode it a few weeks ago on a visit.

(3) Doesn't go everywhere one would like it to. Special priorities would be La Jolla/UCSD (which is in planning), and Balboa Park, the single biggest tourist destination in San Diego (which isn't being planned, but would be a fairly logical extension from one of the existing center-city lines).

Virtues:

Oh, pretty much everything else. :-) It's a nice system.
There is a small push for an actual surface street "trolley" (like Portland ,OR.) to serve Balboa park, and the communities of hilcrest, north park, and points east. This route would figuratively follow the route of the original trolley track map circa 1920's. The new bridges over I-15 (University ave & El Cajon Blvd.) seem to be designed with this option in mind. Of course this would all be dependent on available funding and CA. is bankrupt. But on the hopeful side, we do currently have an extensive system that was started during the recession in 1979-1980. So, who knows... with rising fuel prices, "think green" attitudes, the general hate of city buses in "hip" revitalized neighborhoods and current mindset that street trolley's are "cool" by yuppie residents (again, Portland OR. style), we may see an actual trolley in the next 10-15 years.

Sorry for the confusing terminology; although San Diego calls the current system a trolley, it is actual light rail that runs on surface streets in a few areas.
  by kaiserworks
 
neroden wrote:Rode it a few weeks ago on a visit.

Problems:


(2) Slightly odd line routing choices. To get from Mission Valley to the Convention Center you have to change lines *twice*. The tracks allow for direct service!
This has been a critique by EVERYBODY! I think the routing was originally intended to be a "temporary" solution until the UCSD/University Town center extension which would branch off at Old Town station. Unfortunately budget constaints have left the extension in the engineering stage for now.

Also, with the amount of time that elapsed between the original master plan of the Mission Valley line and its actual construction/opening that the planners couldn't have forseen (911-gas prices, huge population increases, greater than expected highway gridlock) what an overwhelming success it has been. Old Town is too small of a station for 30-50,000+ boardings a day. There is only 1 track in each direction and they can't add a 4th car to the trains because there isn't enough rolling stock. A third track for through service would have been the logical choice but hindsight is 20/20.

  by farmerjohn
 
NO COMPLAINTS ON MY END!, AWSOME SYSTEM!. IF SO. CAL WOULD ONLY LEARN! :-D
  by Head-end View
 
I'm from New York, but I've been to San Diego 3 times in 15 years. The San Diego Trolley is probably the nation's flagship light-rail system. The ride thru Mission Valley is my favorite. But someone brought up a good point above about the lack of airport service. I'm wondering why the line connecting Old Town to Downtown doesn't loop through the airport. This would have been great for tourists and airport employees alike. What a missed opportunity. But it could and should still be done. :wink:
  by Fairless Hills
 
neroden wrote:Rode it a few weeks ago on a visit.

Problems:

(1) High-floor cars with low-floor stations.
(2) Slightly odd line routing choices.
(3) Doesn't go everywhere one would like it to.
And, as previously mentioned, it doesn't go the the airport.

Millions of dollars (for a bankrupt city) being totally lost.

:(
.

  by kaiserworks
 
About the airport connection...

Yep, thats about the stupidest decision ever made regarding the trolley! To answer the reasoning behind this decision, I can only speculate using what I know of local politics and airport planning.

Since 1991 when I moved to S.D. and today, there have been about a dozen proposals to move the S.D. airport out of the downtown (a treacherous air corridor and a recipe for disaster!) to an outlying area. During one of the times that the move seemed likely was during construction of the line running north past the airport. Therefore, why spend millions to engineer and build a connection with an airport that won't be there?

Of course skyrocketing costs of moving the airport, indecision as to where it should go and NIMBYism from the proposed areas has kept the airport right where its been since Charles Lindberg flew from it to the east coast for his famous 1st trans-Atlantic crossing. Chances are, it will never move because of bankrupt city coffers.

They are however looking at ways to make the existing airport more efficient, one proposal is to construct new terminals on the northeast side of the runways on the site of the old Convair aircraft plant. They could then bulldoze the existing terminal and former Teledyn Ryan plant to have a parallel runway. This new terminal would allow easy access to the trolley (and in consequence also the "Coaster" heavy rail as well as Amtrak) by either a short branch track or by a more logical pedestrian bridge with moving sidewalk to a new station at Sassafras st.

Otherwise, if the terminal/airport remains where it is, there will probably never be a direct trolley connection. Proponents and detractors will all argue against funding a line to an airport that will be moved; maybe? almost? never? someday? And the whole mess begins anew.