Route 78: New bus route - Cornwells to 30th St. Express

South Jersey Budd wrote:I HAVE looked through the posts and even SEPTA's AGM of Customer Service stated this was a test to see if it warranted adding a train. It started with one bus, one driver and is now three buses and three drivers plus fuel and mileage. If the bus carries 50?, times 3 buses = 150 Passengers which is about a 2 car train. They may even pick up some additional passengers if you make other stops especially at Trenton since NJT runs through the night.

Let me pull up the following gem of an analysis I did regarding the bus to train conversion:

R3 Passenger wrote:

Tritransit Area wrote:The former special IRS runs on the 14 and 1 are what's paying for the 78 if I'm not mistaken.

Also, in reference to the subsidy, are these buses really subsidized? Cash fare is $6.00, no tokens or anything below a Zone 3 trailpass is accepted. Sounds like the rail fare structure. Oh wait...it IS the rail fare structure.

Speaking of capacity, I counted 60 seats per articulated bus. A single Silverliner 4 can hold about 110 passengers, IIRC. If there are already 3 buses filled to capacity, that would be 180 people, enough for a 2 car Silverliner 4 train with some extra capacity for growth. If you throw in flag stops between Trenton and Cornwells, you might be able to fill that empty capacity. Heck, if that was done, I wouldn't even need to pull the car out of the garage to drive to Cornwells! However, that would be an addition of 16 non-revenue miles to a deadhead run.

I have been saying this since the creation of this route. I even took it recently again. It is full to near capacity. And, keep in mind, this is all just from one station! Although, I would like to add that I found transferring to the El at 30th Street is much quicker than taking the bus all the way to 8th and Market.

Anyone feel like squabbling with me over the need for SEPTA to take over Barracks Yard?

what's barracks yard?

R3 Passenger wrote:

South Jersey Budd wrote:I HAVE looked through the posts and even SEPTA's AGM of Customer Service stated this was a test to see if it warranted adding a train. It started with one bus, one driver and is now three buses and three drivers plus fuel and mileage. If the bus carries 50?, times 3 buses = 150 Passengers which is about a 2 car train. They may even pick up some additional passengers if you make other stops especially at Trenton since NJT runs through the night.

Let me pull up the following gem of an analysis I did regarding the bus to train conversion:

R3 Passenger wrote:

Tritransit Area wrote:The former special IRS runs on the 14 and 1 are what's paying for the 78 if I'm not mistaken.

Also, in reference to the subsidy, are these buses really subsidized? Cash fare is $6.00, no tokens or anything below a Zone 3 trailpass is accepted. Sounds like the rail fare structure. Oh wait...it IS the rail fare structure.

Speaking of capacity, I counted 60 seats per articulated bus. A single Silverliner 4 can hold about 110 passengers, IIRC. If there are already 3 buses filled to capacity, that would be 180 people, enough for a 2 car Silverliner 4 train with some extra capacity for growth. If you throw in flag stops between Trenton and Cornwells, you might be able to fill that empty capacity. Heck, if that was done, I wouldn't even need to pull the car out of the garage to drive to Cornwells! However, that would be an addition of 16 non-revenue miles to a deadhead run.

I have been saying this since the creation of this route. I even took it recently again. It is full to near capacity. And, keep in mind, this is all just from one station! Although, I would like to add that I found transferring to the El at 30th Street is much quicker than taking the bus all the way to 8th and Market.

Anyone feel like squabbling with me over the need for SEPTA to take over Barracks Yard?

I wonder how much it would cost for SEPTA to take it over and to address the "flooding issues" (I believe Barracks Yard was an old NJT yard just north of Trenton if I'm not mistaken - I think someone explained it earlier in this thread). I know that there is demand for people in Bucks County, particularly Bristol and Levittown, who may be car-free and would use the train to access early morning jobs (or late night jobs) in the city. I mentioned it to SEPTA officials before, and was informed that if the program was a success, it would turn into a train.

Well, obviously the program is a success, and here we are with the excuses as to why this bus can't be a train!

R3 Passenger wrote: Let me pull up the following gem of an analysis I did regarding the bus to train conversion:

R3 Passenger wrote:
Anyone feel like squabbling with me over the need for SEPTA to take over Barracks Yard?

Good analysis but if the buses are full who can get us a new train?

Barracks Yard............ is it safe for trains, mechanics and crews? Rough area. Is Morrisville full, why not lease a track or two from NJT? Very nice facility.

South Jersey Budd wrote:

R3 Passenger wrote: Let me pull up the following gem of an analysis I did regarding the bus to train conversion:

R3 Passenger wrote:
Anyone feel like squabbling with me over the need for SEPTA to take over Barracks Yard?

Good analysis but if the buses are full who can get us a new train?

Barracks Yard............ is it safe for trains, mechanics and crews? Rough area. Is Morrisville full, why not lease a track or two from NJT? Very nice facility.

NJT Morrisville is indeed full. I've seen it from working through the Conrail yard and all tracks were occupied overnight...

New development on Route 78: SEPTA wants to make it permanent

http://www.septa.org/notice/asp/hearings.html wrote:The Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA) will conduct a public hearing regarding various proposed route changes to both City Transit and Suburban Transit bus routes.

A public hearing will held on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 at 12:00 p.m. at:

SEPTA Board Room
1234 Market St., Mezzanine Level
Philadelphia, PA 19107

[...]

Route 78 | Cornwells Heights Express

Route 78 began operation in September 2010 under Experimental Order. Route 78 provides three early AM trips from Cornwells Heights to Center City Philadelphia, and two late night trips from Center City Philadelphia to Cornwells Heights due to a lack of train service at those times. Since Route 78 began operation, ridership has grown and stabilized. Three early morning trips depart from Cornwells Heights between 5:20am and 5:25am, and collectively carry an average of 130 passengers per weekday. Two late night trips depart from Center City at 12:45am and 1:45am and carry an average of 40 passengers and 20 passengers respectively.

Here we go again: why not a train? SEPTA claims that no trains run at that time. The way they make it sound is that the trains are run by an authority other than them. Granted, I understand that the trackage is owned by Amtrak, but I think that before this is made permanent, SEPTA needs to justify the bus over a train to the public. I think I might send a comment, and attend the meeting if I can. Also, keep in mind that the current fare on this bus is the standard rail fare structure, NOT the transit fare.

This drives me crazy to no end.

R3 Passenger wrote:New development on Route 78: SEPTA wants to make it permanent

http://www.septa.org/notice/asp/hearings.html wrote:The Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA) will conduct a public hearing regarding various proposed route changes to both City Transit and Suburban Transit bus routes.

A public hearing will held on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 at 12:00 p.m. at:

SEPTA Board Room
1234 Market St., Mezzanine Level
Philadelphia, PA 19107

[...]

Route 78 | Cornwells Heights Express

Route 78 began operation in September 2010 under Experimental Order. Route 78 provides three early AM trips from Cornwells Heights to Center City Philadelphia, and two late night trips from Center City Philadelphia to Cornwells Heights due to a lack of train service at those times. Since Route 78 began operation, ridership has grown and stabilized. Three early morning trips depart from Cornwells Heights between 5:20am and 5:25am, and collectively carry an average of 130 passengers per weekday. Two late night trips depart from Center City at 12:45am and 1:45am and carry an average of 40 passengers and 20 passengers respectively.

Here we go again: why not a train? SEPTA claims that no trains run at that time. The way they make it sound is that the trains are run by an authority other than them. Granted, I understand that the trackage is owned by Amtrak, but I think that before this is made permanent, SEPTA needs to justify the bus over a train to the public. I think I might send a comment, and attend the meeting if I can. Also, keep in mind that the current fare on this bus is the standard rail fare structure, NOT the transit fare.

This drives me crazy to no end.

I highly agree with you. This is frustrating.

OK, we know what the approximate ridership is from the number of buses on the line. We then can estimate the cost and see if it is competitive with the buses. Assume for arguments' sake we deadhead a train to and from Powelton to run the trips, and stop the revenue train only at Cornwells and Torresdale. What are the crew hours and car miles required? Assume the bus deadheads to/from Comly (NE Phila). And it looks like from the schedule you need two night trips.

How many potential riders are staying in their car because they don't want to ride a bus?
How many riders are we losing because their stations are not getting service (North Philly, Bridesburg, Tacony, Holmesburg Junction, Torresdale)?
How hard would it be to take an existing train out on the system at the hours in question and send it to Cornwells, or next closest interlocking?
Could the two night trips be consolidated into one train?

jfrey40535 wrote:How many potential riders are staying in their car because they don't want to ride a bus?
How many riders are we losing because their stations are not getting service (North Philly, Bridesburg, Tacony, Holmesburg Junction, Torresdale)?
How hard would it be to take an existing train out on the system at the hours in question and send it to Cornwells, or next closest interlocking?
Could the two night trips be consolidated into one train?

Don't forget Croydon, Bristol, Levittown-Tullytown, and even Trenton (I realize you mentioned the "next closest interlocking" but there is demand for this service North of Philadelphia). Not everyone in Bucks County can drive to Cornwells Heights, and I've heard from a number of people that would take the train into town to access Center City jobs with early AM shifts, like at the hospitals and such. That's why I was kind of excited about the idea of the 78 at first, and was hoping that there would be enough patronage to warrant the addition of at least an earlier AM train to serve these riders.

The demand is there; why is additional train service not formally being studied?

Okay, time for the passenger side of the analysis.

I am a patron and neighbor of the Croydon Regional Rail Station. I go in early sometimes. To get into work for a 6 AM shift, I can either drive or take the Rt. 78. Both are essentially the same, and reliant on Interstate 95. I can get to work in 30 minutes from door-to-desk on an uneventful morning using I-95 S. I would need to leave 10 minutes earlier to get to Cornwells Heights to get Rt. 78 and arrive at nearly the same time. Parking is roughly $8 for the day at a nearby lot.

If I were to take the train from Croydon, it takes me 7-8 minutes to get to the platform from my front door (given all the construction). Express from Croydon to 30th Street is about 20 minutes (It's happened...once). It would probably be about 22 minutes from Cornwells Heights to 30th Street, a gain of about 3 minutes. Overall time would be about 27 minutes by rail as opposed to 30 driving, and 40 by bus.

Now, let's talk ridership. The Cornwells Heights lot has access from the local area via Station Ave, from the north via Interstate 95, and from Northeast Philadelphia via Woodhaven Road Eastbound. Although my bet is that most of the existing ridership comes from Northeast Philadelphia, it is possible that folks from stations further out like Croydon, Bristol, and Levittown (Eddington would just be a waste of time)drive out of their way to Cornwells Heights for this service, or not at all due to inconvenience and/or the light traffic on I-95 at that hour. And, we can't forget about connecting service at Trenton to pull some ridership from!

Would it be feasible to add service from Torresdale, Holmesburg, Tacony, Holmesburgh, or PHN? Maybe Torresdale, but I think adding one more stop after Cornwells will not be a welcome addition to the people commuting from the North and West.

My conclusion: there is potential to turn this into much more than just an express bus! In addition, (and I'm talking to you, Jon Frey) do we really want SEPTA to set this precedent of service expansion through buses instead of utilization of more efficient and ready rail infrastructure?

Matthew Mitchell wrote:OK, we know what the approximate ridership is from the number of buses on the line. We then can estimate the cost and see if it is competitive with the buses. Assume for arguments' sake we deadhead a train to and from Powelton to run the trips, and stop the revenue train only at Cornwells and Torresdale. What are the crew hours and car miles required? Assume the bus deadheads to/from Comly (NE Phila). And it looks like from the schedule you need two night trips.

Gotta love it when a pro-rail group justifies bus service over rail. Has DVARP changed their name to DVARBP yet to include busses? DVARP's occasional monthly newsletter is the only ARP in the U.S. where I can get updates on bus schedules. Wonderful.

Novice Andy Sharpe pretty much swallowed both of his naive feet when he publicly stated on the DVARP facebook page that "DVARP is concerned with all forms of transit' to which someone responded with 'let's include rickshaws, cruise ships, airplanes, and of course, rail trails, which SEPTA now has four of.' Sharpe had no answer for that one.

Just a reminder of all the other ARPs out there who managed to stay focused on improving and expanding rail. I have looked through all of these websites and their corresponding newsletters and, hell's bells, wouldn't you know it, I could not get any updates on city or state bus service. What kind of rail organizations are these?

- NJ-ARP (New Jersey - http://www.nj-arp.org/
- NARP (National - http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php)
- WISARP (Wisconsin - http://www.wisarp.org/)
- TxARP (Texas - http://www.txarp.org/)
- TARP (Tennessee - http://www.tarprail.org/)
- IARP (Iowa - http://www.iowarailpassengers.org/)
- GARP (Georgia - http://www.garprail.org/)
- Arkansas Rail (Arkansas - http://www.trainweb.org/arkrail/)
- RIARP (Rhode Island - http://www.riarp.org/)
- Colorail (Colorado - http://www.colorail.org/)
- ARPA (Arizona http://www.azrail.org/)
- ESPRA (New York http://www.esparail.org/)
- VARP (Virginia http://www.varprail.org/)
- CAPT (N/S Carolina - http://www.trainweb.org/capt/)

We've already gone over the logistical and financial reasons why they haven't added a train at these times in posts above over the course of this thread. Figure out the manpower and equipment manipulation situation, work out an agreement with Amtrak to get a slot for one early morning and one late-night round trip, and it can be done.

I think it has been said before that this line and others could use some earlier departures. Would it be so unreasonable for me to say that most of the Regional Rail lines could use an early train that could arrive at Suburban Station between 5 and 5:35am besides the trunk?

R3 Passenger: Unfortunately the precedent has been with us for quite a long time. Using bus to expand service might appear efficient to "planners" in implementing service at low cost, but really it isn't. Aside from the numbers that show operational costs per rider are lower on rail vs. bus, the infrastructure for rail is already in place, and that comes in the form of railcars, track and overhead (like dispatchers). In that respect, it doesn't seem logical to idle that infrastructure in place of less efficient bus service. Further, expansion via bus only means buying and maintaining more buses. In the case of the 78, your rail fleet, crews and overhead are at zero utilization.

The demand might be able to be met by adding two additional trains to the roster, one in the morning, and one in the "evening". How many buses are consuming fuel and manpower now? And what's the growth plan of the 78 vs. the R7? Were there any studies done by service planning justifying the long range growth of the owl commuting market on the R7? How will the 78 cope with the impending I-95 reconstruction that's going to remove capacity from the expressway for a 5 year period?

Considering the funding situation gets worse everyday, and the "Guv" doesn't appear to have a solution other than "no new taxes or fees", transit agencies statewide should be on the fast track to a service consolidation and streamlining track to continue to move people with fewer resources. Do we really need 1 bus rolling by 1234 Market every 30 seconds? Can we turn some deadhead runs into limited express runs? Would we have better (and expanded) rail service if the rail system was separated from the transit system? Hopefully there are decision makers asking themselves these questions, and they've arrived at the decisions that have been made because a good, unbiased analysis has been done to justify the direction things are going in.

R3 Passenger wrote:New development on Route 78: SEPTA wants to make it permanent

http://www.septa.org/notice/asp/hearings.html wrote: Three early morning trips depart from Cornwells Heights between 5:20am and 5:25am, and collectively carry an average of 130 passengers per weekday. Two late night trips depart from Center City at 12:45am and 1:45am and carry an average of 40 passengers and 20 passengers respectively.

A couple of points I mentioned before, which nobody seems to acknowledge this time around
1. if we are to believe these figures, 130 passengers ride the bus inbound, only 60 ride outbound. Come on folks, do you really think those 70 people never go back home? Chances are all 130 of the inbound passengers take the train home, and maybe they do so before the start of the evening peak at 3:30pm. And maybe all of those 70 outbound riders took the train inbound, again in off peak direction around 4pm. It sounds like the railroad's getting to fill off peak seats at less than the cost of adding another train, assuming these 5 bus runs cost less than 1 train.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:And it looks like from the schedule you need two night trips.

2. Matt's quote here is the closest I've seen on this one of my prior mentioned points. How many of the current 200 passengers, 130 inbound 60 outbound, will we lose because the train frequency won't be as much as the bus frequency? Or does anybody think they'll run 5 trains, 3 5:20am-5:25am and 2 12:39am-1:39am? I'm willing betting some of the passengers aiming for that 5:25am bus do so with a warm feeling knowing that if they miss it they have 2 more chances.