Pulling trains out of Hudson River tunnels?

Not really off topic, Kahula, just old info. Manhatten Transfer was established by the PRR when they opened NYP with electric powered by third rail almost 20 years before they put up the catenary. It was a platform in the middle of the meadows where electric engines were put on or taken off NYP trains. About 1930, with the catentary installed, the Transfer was discontinued, and the 3rd rail picked up except through the tunnels.

Also, commuters could transfer to a PRR scoot to Penn Station or a H&M/PRR pool service to Hudson Terminal where the WTC site is now.

You know Hudson Tower-- that was built to control the east end of the Manhattan Transfer area, which was on the straightaway just west of there. It closed in 1937-- catenary started in use in 1933, but H&M didn't move into Newark Penn until 1937, so Manhattan Tfr was still needed for them.

90-30 is a GE PLC that NJT uses a lot. Actually a family of them. They're nice units, too.

I've heard speculation that the cause might be either software or software related in a converter. There's not much evidence of a physical failure with the system...

(heck, something that wipes it out, you'd expect an explosion if it were physical)

Mr. Nasadowski wrote:

You can unplug the 90-30 in the other room, nothing happens. The place (substation) can still go about its protective functions...

This writer replied:

what is the "90-30" that you are unplugging?....

Mr. Nasadowski wrote:

90-30 is a GE PLC that NJT uses a lot. Actually a family of them. They're nice units, too.

Thanks! I'm not familiar with the GE PLC product lines... Allen-Bradley or the TI then Siemens 545 or 565 PLC family I know!

Gilbert B Norman wrote:

Allow me to note off-topic, Manhattan Transfer was located where today there is a large NJT maintenance facility that has a distinctive yellow sided building.

Mr. Norman, for my money you can note "off topic" all day on interesting tidbits like that... I knew about Manhattan Transfer from my dad, who used to commute to New York City long before I was born. As I got into railroading, I came to better understand why it existed and for what purpose. I have seen other photographs of the station, and I even enjoyed a number of the songs from the quartet that resurrected the name. But I was never able to determine exactly where the actual station was located until now. I thought it was more in the vicinity of the current Harrison PATH station, and I knew if there was also H&M service to Jersey City and to the predecessor to WTC, Hudson Terminal; that the station had to be located west of where the NEC and PATH to Journal Square split from a more common right-of-way.... Thank you, Mr. Norman!

NY&LB wrote:henry6: To the best of my knowledge the 3rd rais is "leftover from PRR's initial electrification"

To split hairs, the present 3rd rail was recently completely relayed by Amtrak while the tubes were individually shut down for complete track rebuilding. The original 3rd rail may have been removed a comparatively short time before this project started, after years of neglect.

PRR:

AB? I've done MicroLogix and SLC 5/03 stuff. We're a GE shop mostly though (actually a Solutions Provider! GE Tech support hands us to a human right away I've done:

Modicon 984 (junk)
Siemens Step 7 300 and 400-H (ok but complex, slow and networks like crap)
GE 90-30 and VersaMax (I like the VersaMax but the density is too low.)
AB MicroLogix (much nicer density) and SLC 5/03 (upcoming project)

I hate Modicrap, Siemens is ok sometimes but weird and the software's a barge that crashes your computer. Do the TI's have the Siemens (Step 7 - I never saw Step 5) setup of OB1, OB100, FC, FB, etc?

Phil , PRRTech -I’m snickering here because I thought it was Power Line Carrier! Railroading has too many acronyms, I guess I should know better than to expect Utility engineering to be any better. Anyway you saved me a trip to Google.

Bill

Back to Manhattan Transfer, this gets inquired about occasionally. ASCE Transactions 1910 has drawings of this and all the other Penn Station projects. The platforms were 1100’ long, the northside one started about 400’ west of Hudson Tower, the southside one started about 460’ west. They bracketed the 4 track main.

Local.Live shows the Path shop from the north. At the bottom is the M&E and then the 4 track NEC bracketed by a dark strip on the north and a scrub strip on the south. The platforms were in those strips. Next is the NJT yard and the Path tracks. The west end of the northside platform was in line with the Path shop pedestrian overpass. The southside platform ended about 60’ west.

The east end is in this view of Hudson tower from the north and it shows a string of NJT cars on the south side. There is a spare switch in the dark strip at the right that is more of the north side platform area. The east end of the platform is even with the center of the 2nd car from the east. The southside platform again ends 60’ before that.

Back at the west end, the H&M’s eastbound line crossed over the main on a double tracked bridge in line with 7th St on it’s way back along the Center St branch from Newark Park Place.

Google Earth shows this better and you can measure along it but I can’t link to views in it and it needs broadband too. Look at an aerial view for a better overall impression. If you are speeding through on the train it’s from about one cat span west of Hudson through to the start of that section of the Path shop that has the 4 vents on the roof.

Bill

Here's a link to the last electric loco Amtrak could have used on 3rd rail to pull the wire train in the North and East River tunnels. I don't know if Penn Central or Amtrak ever actually used it in the tunnels, but the museum did get it from Amtrak at Wilmington Shops. This particular loco survived because it was supposed to replace the last DD-1 on the wire train job. Of course, the 3rd rail shoes would have had to have been changed from NYC to PRR-LIRR style.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... x?id=12278

Bill West wrote:Back to Manhattan Transfer ... The platforms were 1100’ long, the northside one started about 400’ west of Hudson Tower, the southside one started about 460’ west. They bracketed the 4 track main.

The Jersey City mains were outside the platforms-- right? The two non-platform tracks between the platforms weren't main tracks.

JC mains on outside -yes. The 4 tracks between the plats? -well originally there was 2 tracks from the Passaic bridge, they widened to 4 tracks numbered 1 to 4 from south to north, then went back to 2 for the high line. The middle 2 had enough access to also be useable for an engine change on a through train provided it didn’t promise connections to/from lower Manhattan. So I don’t know whether they were called mains or not. Most pictures show the changes occurring at the platform so the middle tracks may not have seen much use at all. I also recollect that MU service to New Jersey was seen as a future possibility. These tracks could have let them get past mainline trains if 3rd rail service as extensive as LIRR’s was ever considered.

Bill

Bill West wrote:The middle 2 had enough access to also be useable for an engine change on a through train provided it didn’t promise connections to/from lower Manhattan.

Offhand I'm guessing all trains to/from NY Penn did show H&M connections at Manh Trfr.

Incidentally-- ever notice that PRR trains from Jersey City didn't stop at Manh Tfr?

The New York Times today is reporting that Amtrak will station a rescue locomotive outside the tunnel, with (I love this phrase) "all neccessary compromise knuckles."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/09/nyreg ... mtrak.html

Pete wrote:The New York Times today is reporting that Amtrak will station a rescue locomotive outside the tunnel, with (I love this phrase) "all neccessary compromise knuckles."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/09/nyreg ... mtrak.html

The Amtrak press release as reported by the Times as to the ownership by PSE&G of a frequency converter is incorrect. The Metuchen Rotary Converter is owned by PECO but is on property leased from PSE&G.

Perhaps Amtrak does not realize that PSE&G is not the owner.