Amtrak 5 incident near Reno NV (CZ California Zephyr)

in all reallity the grade crossing in this case will cost more (in lawsuits and settlements) than a grade seperation would have cost.
and all cost can not compare to 6 lives lost at this tragic accident.

Champlain Division wrote:Now taking wagers on how fast USDOT and the State of Nevada get a flyover bridge built at that location.

Frankly, I believe that ANY highway designated as "US" anything, like the interstates, should have a strict policy of grade crossing elimination so tragedies like this are no longer possible on any major arterial routes. (Besides, if this had been a freight train involved we wouldn't even be having this discussion.)

The cheaper option, seeing as this route will eventually have to have PTC installed, is to mandate that any rail route with passenger trains must also eliminate or bridge all grade crossings. Adding a $5 surcharge onto all Amtrak and/or commuter tickets sold annually ought to generate over $140,000,000.00 a year to pay for it. Call it the "Passenger Rail Safety Enhancement Trust Fund" Solons love to fall all over fancy named legislation like that.

Commuter tickets? Not going to happen. It would be another case of taxing those that can least afford to pay another tax. Especially in the case of many people who use NJT trains for short trips that would now cost double if not triple with this tax added.

Champlain Division wrote:Now taking wagers on how fast USDOT and the State of Nevada get a flyover bridge built at that location.

Frankly, I believe that ANY highway designated as "US" anything, like the interstates, should have a strict policy of grade crossing elimination so tragedies like this are no longer possible on any major arterial routes. (Besides, if this had been a freight train involved we wouldn't even be having this discussion.)

The cheaper option, seeing as this route will eventually have to have PTC installed, is to mandate that any rail route with passenger trains must also eliminate or bridge all grade crossings. Adding a $5 surcharge onto all Amtrak and/or commuter tickets sold annually ought to generate over $140,000,000.00 a year to pay for it. Call it the "Passenger Rail Safety Enhancement Trust Fund" Solons love to fall all over fancy named legislation like that.

Elimination of a grade crossing by building a road flyover bridge or underpass costs over $10 million per crossing. Even at $140 million per year it would take decades to before a large percentage were eliminated. Here's an example: http://www.antonnews.com/mineolaamerica ... 1/09/news/

The $140 million would do 5 or 6 per year at this cost. Granted, many are less complex and could be done for roughly half this cost.

gprimr1 wrote:Grade crossing elimination is a great goal, but running out and creating new taxes is not really the best idea. For example, there are several grade crossings on US-66 in the California desert. When I go out there, in reality, I might see less than 10 cars a day and 4 of them are prob railfans.

Technically US 66 hasn't existed there since the 1970s (the other 6 are probably Route 66 fans ), but there are probably similar examples of current U.S. Routes. A better idea would be to use the National Highway System, which is the second-highest tier of federal funding (highest being the Interstates). US 95 is on it as the primary north-south route through western Nevada.

While in view of the enormity of this tragedy since it involves "family members' to a number of our members here, as well as to passengers who simply paid for a ride, I will take liberty and report that I have learned Dorm 39013 and Coach 34033 will be written off.

^Figured as much, nothing could really have been done with them anyways....

In regards to nationwide grade crossing elimination, that would be one of the single greatest wastes of money I have ever heard of. Certain locations have a combination of factors that necessitate grade separation and I agree that those specific spots should be addressed. When looking at the cost of grade separation, its also important to consider the upkeep costs, not just the initial build. Obviously a bridge over time will wear down like any infrastructure and it is grossly more expensive to rebuild or rehabilitate than a crossing. There are tons of desolate roads all over the country, especially out West, that cross tracks and to bridge all of them (some maybe seeing a car a day at most) would be outrageous. When the NEC was upgrading, in many cases they just closed roads completely that needed bridges, and that was justified based on the actual importance vs. expected bridge cost, for each road. I personally (just my opinion) would like to see more grade crossing technologies tested out and developed, that could be used effectively instead of jumping straight toward bridges.

Davis

For those interested, here's a Streetview of the U.S. Route 95 crossing.

slchub wrote:John, thanks for asking. I handed the train over to the Reno engineer on Friday morning. It is not a good feeling to know that your fellow colleagues have suffered an incident such as this. We are all in disbelief, and a gut feeling tells me this is nothing more than an incident; not related in any manner to the suspected plots by the others in this forum. When you work on the head end of the train, you seen plenty of inept drivers who fail to pay attention to the crossing lights and horn of an approaching passenger train (assumption being that we are a slow, lumbering freight drag).

Thanks for the thoughts, prayers and kind words.

Hi slchub !
I'm sorry that you were connected with this awful tragedy. If I may make a suggestion to you based upon my own experience, should any of your usual lifestyle change, even in the slightest - sleeplessness, nightmares, restlessness during the daytime - anything, don't hesitate in talking this out with a trained PTSD counsellor. It can and does dissapate what can be a snowball turning into an avalance in some cases. I wish you the best and when this is all said and done, want to see you come out of this whole. Not being directly involved in an incident does not necessarily mean not being emotionally involved. You are probably closer in this regard than anyone on RRN, so handle yourself as well as you handle those large machines. Your friend, Paul.

Jtgshu wrote:My thoughts go out to the folks affected by this horrible incident (notice I didn't say accident, yet) especially the folks who perished, both the passengers and crew member.

The damage is horrific. Two cars basically melted? It sure seems that their "backbone" is broken, as both cars look to be sagging down pretty good. I don't mean just the roof, but the entire car. The fire must have been tremendously hot, and I think everyone is fortunate more folks weren't injured or killed.

Looking at the charred wrecks, http://www.rgj.com/article/20110624/NEW ... ir-stories I can't understand why the cars were so damaged and melted. FRA rail-cars are indestructible. Did the FD let the railcars free burn out since water is too expensive to bring out to the desert and property damage is not the FD's concern? Or the 20 min response time of the FD in the desert meant when the FD finally got there the cars were burning like an oil refinery fire and it wasn't worth to hose it anymore.

The interiors of the Superliners are all plastic. How fire resistant is this plastic? Or fire resistance rating becomes irrelevant at surface of the sun, steel mill, can't stand closer than 100 feet or youll be burnt temperatures?

Another poster mentioned the usual long distance for the train to stop and "fanning the flames" as a possible reason for so much damage.

I propose, is the reason for the fire related to the 1996 Capitol Limited crash, all the diesel (from truck in this case) in the crash splashes into the inside of the passenger rcar phenomenon? but what about the 3-4 cars that were burnt? all 3-4 were splashed?

The loss of life is horrible, of course, and speculating why the truck driver did anything is impossible right now, but I think its reasonable to discuss why the railcars wound up in the shape they are now (scrap metal), after such a typical accident.

I wonder if the FRA will demand sprinkler systems on FRA passenger cars jk jk

If we had old all steel cars with rattan seats there would be no fire....

There are still 28 persons missing. It reminds me of the 9-11 attacks. Hundreds of people who worked in the twin towers never made it in to work on time that morning for various reasons. I'm guessing that we have yet to hear about those who bought tickets, but for some reason, missed that train.

patcat88 wrote:Looking at the charred wrecks, http://www.rgj.com/article/20110624/NEW ... ir-stories I can't understand why the cars were so damaged and melted. FRA rail-cars are indestructible. Did the FD let the railcars free burn out since water is too expensive to bring out to the desert and property damage is not the FD's concern? Or the 20 min response time of the FD in the desert meant when the FD finally got there the cars were burning like an oil refinery fire and it wasn't worth to hose it anymore.
..
I propose, is the reason for the fire related to the 1996 Capitol Limited crash, all the diesel (from truck in this case) in the crash splashes into the inside of the passenger rcar phenomenon? but what about the 3-4 cars that were burnt? all 3-4 were splashed?

From the pictures and description of the accident on the Reno Gazette website, much of the truck cab, including the engine block ended up inside the Superliner car. That implies that the diesel fuel tanks on the truck may have ended up inside the Superliner as they were torn apart resulting in a lot of fuel for the fire. The 20 minute response was likely for the first responders who were driving the faster lead command vehicles or the first police presence on the scene. The fire trucks or the heavier fire fighting equipment may not have gotten there until later. Even if the fire trucks with water got there in 20 minutes, 20 minutes is a long time for a fuel fed fire and plenty of time to do severe damage. On top of that, unless there was a fire hydrant or pool nearby, the fire company would be limited to the water on the truck.

From the photos, 2 Superliners were hit, the 2nd by the gravel truck bed. The 3rd one appears to have suffered smoke and fire heat damage from the fire in the car ahead of it. It is obvious that this was a high speed collision. If the final toll is indeed 6 dead, while that is an awful number, that is was not far higher should be seen as a combination of luck (train could have derailed or the truck could have hit a full diner car), testament to the Superliner design, and the quick response of the crew and the passengers.

The NTSB team has a challenging task ahead of them in this accident, especially trying to determine why the truck driver did not stop.

That's a sad thing all the way around, from the railroad family, to the employees, the responders and even the driver's family.

Does anyone know the status of the scene? Amtrak isn't showing any delays for 5/6 on their site.

And now, the truck company is under scrutiny. It's apparently been under the microscope before...

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?secti ... id=8215505

A Nevada trucking company under scrutiny for a fiery crash with an Amtrak train that left at least six dead has been cited repeatedly by state authorities for crashes, unsafe driving and operating a truck with tires so bald the vehicle had to be taken off the road.

I couldn't post the headline since all the automatic code links still don't work and I only have very limited HTML code knowledge...

To add, with regard to the missing persons, a spokesperson on Good Morning America this morning said it is possible some people got out and away from the scene without checking in with authorities. The search continues....I just saw an update on the news that reports only 5 unaccounted for now.

First of all, my condolences to those who lost someone.

frostyorange wrote: Perhaps vehicles need built in grade crossing warning mechanisms or something.

We should limit all trucks to 29mph until they get automatic cab control signal systems installed. Makes more sense then the knee-jerk reactions applied to train systems when they're at fault in a collision.


As for the initial terrorism talk, all this showed is how ineffective any terrorist attack on a US train would be. We had a "perfect" situation, where a high speed truck hit a high speed train. Planning that, with amtrak schedules, is almost impossible because of how long it takes for a truck to accelerate, and how random amtrak schedules can be. You cant just hang out at a crossing and move when the train is coming, trucks need a very long distance to reach high speeds. And the heavier the truck, the longer that will take.

And then end result was very few deaths (from a terrorism "goal" perspective). Any terrorist could have more "success" with a gun at a supermarket. Or, to keep it train related, simply boarding the train and shooting passengers on board.


This just showed how safe our rail system is, even with a terrible situation like this.

If the fuel tank(s) were compromised it was a Class B (flammable liquid) fire. Diesel is not water soluble and has a lower specific gravity i.e. it floats. Hitting it with water will cause the fuel and flames to spread.

I'd bet the location and long response times were a factor in the cars becoming fully involved and burning for hours. The local FD shows up and realizes it is going to take foam and specialized equipment to knock it down. Which has to come from even further away.....

Look closely at the pics and video -- the silver firemen are in aviation turnout gear. Likely from the nearest major airport or military air base. There was plenty of time and fuel (including all that foam and plastic) for the steel to reach its critical temperature.