Photographers vs. Police: We meet again...

3rdrail wrote:That's very true, Don. The problem here is that you're taking the word of people who have absolutely no idea about the law nor the elements which constitute a viable prosecution. I'm not here to give you a law course. Frankly, I couldn't care less if this group isn't receptive. Good luck all !

Paul, it sounds like you want out of this conversation. Please don't go. And no, I am not being a wise guy.

You seem to be coming from a law enforcement point of view, where the job is to confront unlawful behavior and the result is the inevitable cry of "my rights are being violated." I can empathize with that. Every crook hides behind the law. I realize this.

I have relied on police for the safeguarding of my rights quite a few times. And I am very thankful. They have been wonderful. If you are part of this, I thank you as well.

But they don't always get things right. Any chief of police or other supervisor of law enforcement can vouch for this. Keeping the tigers in check is a lot of work.

My point is NOT that all cops are bad. My point is that they are human and they make mistakes from time to time. And some of us, including myself, are not above holding powerful people, like law enforcement officials, accountable. Hence the enormous responsibility of police officers.

As for my anonymity: I am not that interesting. I really am a boring person. I get bored with myself, and my kids tell me I am boring as well. My engaging of you in this thread is not to demean someone I do not know. It is to participate in a subject we feel strongly about. If it makes you feel better, call me a coward. But I assure you that I am not.

And you make very valid points about the hiring managers. I can vouch for what you said. Trespassing is aiming a little low, but I am picking up what you are laying down. I can assure you that I am familiar with the situation.

That being said: It is not illegal to take pictures of trains in New Jersey from a public place.

Passaic,

Some of the points in your post sum things up very well for me. Police do a really great job, but are human like the rest of us. Anyone in authority (police, other govt. workers, politicians, etc., etc.) must be held accountable for their actions when outside the law. We are a nation of law and those charged with its enforcement cannot legislate new laws in the field, regardless of whether they are misinformed or having a bad day or whatever. There is no need to demonize the police, but there is no need to suspect all railfans of criminal activity either.

Ken W2KB wrote:Please note that NJT police

ARGH! My apologies. Bitten by the difference between NY and NJ law. I wouldn't dispute anything Ken says here, and take everything I said above with a grain of good old New York State Syracuse salt.

After my bad day at 42nd St. two weeks ago I wondered when my next meet with law enforcement would be. I only had to wait thirteen days for another. I was on the shoulder of Derouse Ave. in Pennsauken where the NJT Light Rail RiverLine crosses that street, near to where the new station is being built, the one that will connect with the AC Line. I wanted to get the ACES train. As I am standing there a Pennsauken Twp Police car pulls up. Now I will say the officer was very polite and said he was responding to a call about someone photographing trains, (guilty, your honor. I was taking pictures of trains). He asked for ID and I provided it and I said nothing about being on public property, NJ Transit not having a problem with photography of its trains or my Constitutional rights. Then a NJT police car pulls up. Perhaps re-enforcements were needed. The NJT officer remained in his car. The one thing that puzzled me was that the officer asked me for my Social Security number after I provided the usual info. I did not know that police ever asked for that. For you law enforcement people is this normal procedure? He wrote all this stuff down but I began to wonder just what happens to this information that you provide? Is it entered into some kind of data base? the file that collects info on annoying rail fans? the dossier on potential terrorists posing as actual rail fans? As I said the officer was polite and did not order me from the area. After he left the NJT officer who had conferred with him motioned me to his cruiser and said, "Have a nice day watching trains". I have no problems with being questioned by law enforcement, especially couteous ones but I just have this nagging fear that all this information is being stored somewhere for future use.

RussNelson wrote: ARGH! My apologies. Bitten by the difference between NY and NJ law. I wouldn't dispute anything Ken says here, and take everything I said above with a grain of good old New York State Syracuse salt.

Hi Russ,

Just to bolster Ken's posting, a member of RR.net posted about his experience with trespassing at South Amboy:
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... oy#p693006

Hi Mr. P (FWIW, I have a habit that I do for comic relief, in often making a condensed version of a users name into a comical version. You'll see it in my "Quiz" over at the MBTA forum. Please don't think that by me calling you "Mr. Rat" that
I meant anything derogatory, as apparently somebody believed. I didn't.) Thank you for inviting me back into the thread. I'm happy to give any advice that I can, but have to say that occasionally, I encounter angry individuals who out of their own anger, attempt to discredit what I am saying by making comments such as that I listened too carefully to a high school principal. It doesn't bother me in the least. Trust me when I tell you that I have a very thick skin and have been called names, shot at, thrown down stairs, have had wooden doors broken over me, and probably worst of all, was attacked by a crazy lady in an apartment hallway screaming "I hate cigars !!!" (I had a stogey in my mouth at the time.) The reason that I felt that my comments weren't worth posting was that it seemed as if they were landing on deaf ears. I have no prejustices. I just happen to have have had experience doing the things that we are talking about, that's all. I also enjoy Kens comments, always finding them very instructional, and if I may say so, with he and myself, you have a good criminal justice resource. Misdemeanors are all "discretionary" offenses. There's no law that says that they must be made. Arrests are time consuming and disturb a policeman's routine, so if you get locked up, more than likely you've qualified in all the crimes elements (criteria to support the charge) and the policeman believes that it's appropriate to lock you up. Do mistakes happen ? Yes, but they are rare, especially in an environment where the policeman knows the trespass law up and down because it is a common offense encountered in many jurisdictions. Remember, this may be your first to third time at bat. The policeman has probably done this countless times before, knows how his supervisor feels about it, and knows how the local courts feel about it and how it is handled. Now...for the benefit of our beloved NY state railfans. I looked up the NY Trespass statute. Here it is: http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PE ... 40.10.html It's typical in that from what I've seen, most of the states "trespass" statutes are very much alike, with occasional minor variation. This one even has it's own railroad section (g) that has right in it that as long as the city or county that the railroad is in has conspicuously posted the property as a "no trespass railroad zone", and you "knowingly enter or remain unlawfully in a building or upon real property" which is covered by these signs, you have fulfilled all of the elements to be arrested and have probable cause found at arraignment. So...don't think that the cops don't have the right to arrest you as Russ has told you. They do. They are acting as agents for the railroad and the city or county if posted as such. They also have the right to tell you to leave railroad property for the same reasons. The mili-second that you remain, you have fulfilled the elements by remaining unlawfully under section "a". (What do you think Ken - does "a" cover a railroad station that is not posted but is where a party remains unlawfully ?) I think that it does. The bottom line - It's not worth it. Don't get sucked into taking action, urged by dubious posters who are going to be nowhere to be found when the crap hits the fan. This is not a rebellion against another countrys oppression. This is a reaction to world-wide intelligence indicating that railroads are the expected next U.S. target in a vicious terrorist attack. Get your priorities straight. If you want to become an activist, go out and vote or donate to a worthy cause. If you want to go out and make an ass out of yourself with half-baked ideas about why things are and the laws that control them, you will only be the boob on page 32 of the local newspaper, made fun of by the guys that were smarter working at decent jobs.

kevikens wrote:... The one thing that puzzled me was that the officer asked me for my Social Security number after I provided the usual info. I did not know that police ever asked for that. For you law enforcement people is this normal procedure?...

I'm not a law enforcement officer, Kevin (as you know), but police officers frequently ask for the social security number after getting the driver's license. One is not required to furnish SSN.
I highly recommend not giving up your SSN. When I programmed my scanner with FRA frequencies, one of them was NJ Transit Police. I was quite surprised to hear people's personal information on the scanner: name, address, date of birth, driver's license number, car registration (I mostly heard drivers stopped for crossing violations on the River LINE), and then Social Security number!!!!!

chuchubob wrote:

kevikens wrote:... The one thing that puzzled me was that the officer asked me for my Social Security number after I provided the usual info. I did not know that police ever asked for that. For you law enforcement people is this normal procedure?...

I'm not a law enforcement officer, Kevin (as you know), but police officers frequently ask for the social security number after getting the driver's license. One is not required to furnish SSN.
I highly recommend not giving up your SSN. When I programmed my scanner with FRA frequencies, one of them was NJ Transit Police. I was quite surprised to hear people's personal information on the scanner: name, address, date of birth, driver's license number, car registration (I mostly heard drivers stopped for crossing violations on the River LINE), and then Social Security number!!!!!

only way i will give up my SSN is if he thretens to fine me in the thousands or above. that is rediculous

I, uh, can't remember my ssn!

Maybe they're asking for social security numbers just to test if you're giving them fake identification. For example if you give them John Smith's driver's license, but Tom Brown's social security number, when they go back to the police car and run the identification you gave through their system if it doesn't all match that would indicate you're misleading them.

I notice POP ticket verifiers on the Riverline doing something like that, if you give them identification they'll ask how old you are AND what's your birthdate, I assume to try to trip up somebody with fake id who hasn't quite memorized what the fake id says.

Exactly. It's a cross-check. It also protects you. I have personally seen this many times where somebody arrested uses another name and personal info at booking, field interrogation, or citation. You're not required by law to carry ID. It may be your name that their using. It might be random, it might not be. I saw one brother give his brothers info, right down to his address and SS #.

HBLR wrote:The cops I don't like are the ones who think they are right and are wrong. Otherwise when I'm out watching trains do things on my off days I might bump into a police officer and usually end up having a very pleasant conversation with them. I think usually they tend to be unpleasant when they are doing something that is a pain in the ass to them. For example, i was at the station by BJ's in JC and some stupid with a car tried to beat the train as it was going towards hoboken pulling out of the station. Cops, EMS fire crew, a full circus. This one female officer i'm usually having good interactions with was quite sharp with me after i was trying to take photos of the incident. The LRV doors were all open on both sides on both vehicles and the train operator and some light rail ops staff were hanging around giving info trying to figure it all out. Was an interesting scene, tried to get some photos, was told by her that photography on NJT property was illegal. I have an email from NJT stating their policy, i did not have the printout with me at the time, but i said, you really should go to hoboken terminal and ask the station master, because it's not illegal. She said i had to not take any photos or leave the premises. I can't stand when good intentioned people mess up like that, kind of ruins my whole day.

"This one female officer i'm usually having good interactions with was quite sharp with me after i was trying to take photos of the incident". What does that even mean? And what does it tell you if an officer who normally leaves you alone to do whatever tells you not to do something? Maybe that you're doing something wrong? I don't know, just the thinker in me talking. But then again, thinking coherently about your posts is never an ease feat.

waldwickrailfan wrote:i get stopped by police when the engineers see a "suspisous person" in Waldwick. i now talk to the engineers and they havent called the police on me...yet! some of them are very mean and threten to call them. they do not. the police never even come anymore becuase they are used to me.

Maybe you should stop annoying the engineers if they are being "mean" to you.

JasW wrote:

3rdrail wrote:

Passaic River Rat wrote:Confronting the officer is not a good idea. Asking him to put his money where his mouth is and charge you is the way to go. This way he can be confronted in court.

(Oh, you gotta love these railfan armchair lawyers.) It's also the way to go if you want a permanent booking file with your fingerprints, photograph, and other personal information held in the local police department's and FBI data base systems, as well as risk gaining a permanent criminal record, accesible world-wide by any authorized agency. (You ever want a "real job" in the future ? Guess what they check ?) It's also the way to go if you would like to donate thousands of dollars to the lawyer of your choice's next Canary Island vacation, be required to go to numerous attorney and court meetings and hearings, and put your life on hold while you defend yourself. It's also a great way to get a post on Railroad.Net in the "Employment" thread, whining that you've made an application and are worried that an eight year old Trespassing charge is going to hurt your chances. Hmm, I wonder ?
All for getting that amateur shot that everyone else will think stinks. (??)

The county DA's office is not going to pursue a bogus trespassing charge -- or even a nominally genuine one -- against a railfan photographer. Even assuming the cop follows through, the DA will more than likely nolle pross it. The judge also has the power to dismiss even a genuine charge as a de minimis infraction. The arrest record can then be expunged (unless you've actually been convicted of something before and had that conviction expunged). This can even be done one's self.

I guess this is what you were banking on in case you had been charged while knowingly trespassing in Hoboken Terminal to grab some photos?

waldwickrailfan wrote:

chuchubob wrote:

kevikens wrote:... The one thing that puzzled me was that the officer asked me for my Social Security number after I provided the usual info. I did not know that police ever asked for that. For you law enforcement people is this normal procedure?...

I'm not a law enforcement officer, Kevin (as you know), but police officers frequently ask for the social security number after getting the driver's license. One is not required to furnish SSN.
I highly recommend not giving up your SSN. When I programmed my scanner with FRA frequencies, one of them was NJ Transit Police. I was quite surprised to hear people's personal information on the scanner: name, address, date of birth, driver's license number, car registration (I mostly heard drivers stopped for crossing violations on the River LINE), and then Social Security number!!!!!

only way i will give up my SSN is if he thretens to fine me in the thousands or above. that is rediculous

So I guess if they don't threaten you with a fine for enough money that you'd rather take a ride in the back of a squad car? Seriously people, just be respectful and cooperative. They can get the information regardless of whether it comes from your mouth, don't be an idiot.