Buffalo Central Terminal - The Big Discussion

I dont think you understand what property development is all about. It's not what you perceive to be there now, it is the potential of what a property can become. That is really what the "development" part means.

If everyone thought like you, there would be no rebuilding, no renewal, no gentrification, no progress.

I'm with Otto. Having lived in Metro Atlanta for the past 22 years and having seen a lot of America's cities and towns and how they handled similar situations/problems I can tell you that it is the "Gentrification" process that opens the gate to progress that would be critical to BCT's future usefullness. However, it's not redeveloping BCT that will open those gates; redeveloping the neighborhood will do that.

I have seen example after example of blighted neighborhoods just like the one adjacent to BCT revitalized and ressurrected by developers and individuals who believed in the concept. They bought up individual houses to renew or demolish and re-build, bought up entire blighted block(s) areas and built condos or apartments in their place and transformed abandoned industrial buildings into hotly sought after loft space. Public Housing neighborhoods were closed down and demolished and re-built the new way adding a new house here and there among the condos and apartments to break up the "Human Hive" effect.

You ask "What happened to the people that were living there renting from blight landlords or the Housing Authority?" Admittedly, some of them had to be forced out by eviction, but most left willingly when offered Section 8 housing subsidy vouchers for other neighborhoods, other cities or even the suburbs. Essentially, anywhere a transit authority bus route would take them.

You have to understand that most of these people were third or fourth generation welfare recipients or working poor stuck in the cultural quagmire of hopelessness engendered by that "Hood" mentality that most never affected by it find so reprehensible. Most of these people were literally destroying what they were living in and so impoverished or culturally polarized that even those that rented on Section 8 subsidy had to be evicted or forced out by condemnation procedings because they couldn't or wouldn't pay their portion of the rent. (BTW, average rent for a blighted house in these neighborhoods: generally $250.00/month; never exceeding $500.00.) The government finally started listening to property owners complaining that there was no way they could pay their property taxes with the rent money these people could or would pay.

So, who moved in or invested in these properties vastly increasing municipal property tax revenues? Let's just say that the demographic "Flight to the Suburbs" of the 60s and 70s has been, in an undeniably significant way, reversed by the current generation of young people who see the world differently.

To the people moving in Gentrification is a great idea. To those forced out, on a personal level, it is the worst thing that could possibly have happened because they no longer possess the demographic power to "scare people away." Even among human rights activists the subject is quite low on their radar meriting only anecdotal mention because those affected won't, or don't want to, improve themselves.

Now, if something like that can be done in Atlanta, it can be done anywhere. It can even be done in Buffalo. Currently, the economy admittedly probably can't support it; but that could change either with economic cycles or with the right vision.

My dollar three eighty. So there, nyahhh!

The big difference is that Atlanta is a growing city and Buffalo is a dying one. There are no economic cycles here, just steady decline since the 1970's when manufacturing employment peaked. We haven't had any recovery here in 30 years. The recession didn't even make an impact here because the economy was so stagnant already that no one even noticed. Places like Atlanta rebound from conditions that were no where near what's happening here. There is no, and will never be the type of huge public/private investment here that would bring back a building like BCT in an area where it is located.

http://www.buffalonews.com/city/census/ ... 376846.ece

Well years from now we will see who is right and who is wrong. Everyone has a strong opinion online, but in the future when the building is restored I'd like to see the naysayers n see what they have to say then. I also live in WNY, born and raised. For the past 8 years I've spent countless hours volunteering at the building. Let me tell you the building is on its way to being restored. Anyone disagree with me? Then your delusional and haven't stepped foot on the property in a while. Don't form an opinion just from looking at some outdated photos. If you still don't believe the building is on its way back then feel free to go to any CTRC event this summer and see the progress for yourself.

I've watched the steady decline of the structure firsthand, since it was still half way decent back in the late 70's. The work being done at this time is more of a stabilization of the current state that the structure is in than a true restoration. Clean up & patch work, to keep it in a holding pattern, that's it. I would liken it to preserving a dead corpse in formaldahide so that people could gawk and stare, rather than bringing it back to life. The hard work being done and the money being spent there now would have made a real difference 20 to 30 years ago, just look at Ken Kramer's book on BCT to see how far gone it has become since he took those pics, not all that long ago. The chances of being able to use that structure again are about the same as seeing an old ruin like the Pyramids at Giza or the Roman Colosseum restored to original condition. The building will remain a gutted out architectural ruin.

Railroaded wrote: I've watched the steady decline of the structure firsthand, since it was still half way decent back in the late 70's.

That was then, this is now. And no its more than simply "stabilization of the current state". I said anyone who doesn't believe in the restoration need to go to the building itself! Simply reading about it and seeing it in person are two different things.

Structures in far worse condition and in far worse neighborhoods have been successfully redeveloped to great success. But it is far easier to use opinion and hearsay to knock something down than it is to use a wrecking ball.

Too bad we get stuck in the same conversation every time CRTC makes a major announcement.

True! Even when news comes out every few months of something positive of the building, people still keep saying the same thing, "Oh the neighborhoods too bad and the building it too far gone". Someday even in the crazy possibility when Amtrak comes back to the building people will still keep saying the same old negative lines they've been spewing for years. Everyone needs to change there opinion or at least get the facts straight.

Let's face it guys this is Buffalo we are talking about, there is no economy here in Buffalo, great the medical campus is expanding but how many of these people have any interest in Buffalo, it is mostly foreign money being invested and it is not really bring in people to the area. Even the first ring burbs are loosing.

terminalfanatic,

A number of years back, my wife, my nephew and myself arranged for a tour of the terminal during a Thursday work day. (My wife had fallen in love with the place during a previous visit to the area when we basically just stumbled upon it right at dusk one day while exploring the city.) I don't remember the guide's name, but forgive us thus far for not giving formal thanks. I can say wholeheartedly that he left us with a sense of hope for the terminal's future.

May I suggest making yourself available to our naysayers for private tours so that you can use the best visual aid there is, the Terminal itself and the progress therein? Those like yourself with a personal stake in the facility, both living and dead, are doing everything thay can to bring attention to BCT. Who knows? Maybe even one or more of the permanent ghostly residents will participate in the tour to add emphasis.

To our naysayers personally from myself, perhaps you could consider volunteering in spite of your misgivings. People pull together to restore lost causes like old steam locomotives, depots, etc all the time. Doing something else more important with your free time I'll bet. However, I'll also bet you could squeeze in a few hours here and there if for nothing else than to expand your horizons. Might even be fun wasting your time in such a manner. (I know I would at least several times a year if I lived up there.)

It is great that most of the posts are from people who do live here or have not been in in a few years. In todays paper the area around the terminal has the worst decline in population in the city. You people should be here now and look at what is going on orshlud I say not going on.

I guess I'll throw in the towel on this one. I pretty much said everything I really wanted to say, take it or leave it, I guess I'll just let the building speak for itself. We'll see what happens. Just so you know, I'm not a do nothing. I'm involved with a local Marine Historical Society called Lower Lakes. We don't have a building anything near the size of BCT and it's still hard to string everything together and make it presentable as a museum & giftshop, it takes a lot of work just to keep that place running. A few years ago we had the option to get a 600-foot Lake Freighter called the Henry Steinbrenner to run as a display but in the end it was just too much to take on and we decided not to do it. We concentrated on smaller, more doable projects like moving into our own building and making outdoor displays, and also book projects, so it turned out OK, but I always wondered what would have happened with that boat. It very well may have been our undoing, similar to what litterally "went down" with the "Friends of The SS Canadiana" group. They got in way over their head and the project to restore the ship fell apart under it's own weight, the group imploded, and the boat got scrapped anyway after major money was already spent...

Anyway, I went to the Batavia train show today and a guy there had some nice BCT postcards for sale. Also, another guy must have been playing around with his computer. He had taken a photo of BCT, and then added old timey cars to the scene and then printed it with a sepia tone to look older. Not exactly professional, but it was a neat idea. Anyone else see that?

Nobody would like to see something positive on this one more than me. Having said that, I do not see a lot of hope for BCT. The neighborhood was bad on my first train ride through Buffalo in 1958, a friend and I arrived EB on the NKP and were headed for steam in Toronto and area via the Budd Car to Niagara Falls. The NKP folks warned us about that area and even the New York Central people both in the station and on the Budd Car also warned us to be careful around there. We got a ride from the NKP to the BCT for the Budd Car to NF. On the return we took a taxi from BCT to the DL&W station to go east on the DL&W.
This station will never again serve Amtrak nor any other passenger service either, it is in the wrong place and would require a huge expense to again be useful. Even if it were, it would not be a great area to drive to and public transportation in general in Buffalo is not that great with the possible exception of the light rail line. It probably costs Amtrak a lot less to operate two separate facilities in Buffalo, one with lots of parking in a suburban location and one downtown and accessible to other connections.
The building could probably be useful to a point for something although I am having difficulty figureing out just what but even for a non rail use, it would still cost a lot of money and it is very uncertain just where that money would come from.
Back in the 1980's the old Broadway Station in downtown Albany was fixed up for a bank HQ, it cost a huge amount of money and took a lot of work. Unfortunately today that building so far as I know is vacant when Bank of America did not see fit to continue using it even though it was lovingly restored.
It reminds me of a Caddilac in the middle of the Sahara Desert, where can you go with it?
Noel Weaver

You know what I heard from some guy? That buildings in bad neighborhoods never get fixed. I also heard that if you stand too long in one spot in a bad neighborhood, you could get killed, or worse. I also heard that if something is in a bad neighborhood, that people wont go there, because it's in a bad neighborhood. I was told it's a bad neighborhood because it's in a bad neighborhood. Bad neighborhood in a bad neighborhood, with no economy and a bad neighborhood surrounded by a bad neighborhood. Plus, it's Buffalo, which is in a bad neighborhood.

"Don't get buffaloed in Buffalo!"

Hey Otto, no disrespect, everyone has there right to an opinion and it casuses people to think, but when was the last time you were in Buffalo to see what it is like. You are a long way from here as are a malority of the posters, I to wish them luck, but I am realistic too. I volunteer with many organizations and I can see what is happening with them, we are getting older and a lot of the younger generation is working long hours and spends there free time play electronic games

Doesn't sound very positive about the neighborhhod based on this article. Maybe in another decade or two the area will approach zero population and the city will find enough money to bulldoze it all. Then things can be turned around from scratch....urban prarie.

http://www.buffalonews.com/incoming/article377868.ece