Buffalo Central Terminal - The Big Discussion

FYI: The CTRC released our Master Plan yesterday. http://buffalocentralterminal.org/about ... -overview/

A press coverage roundup is here: http://buffalocentralterminal.org/2011/ ... -coverage/

"Master Plan" ? More like "Plan 9 From Outer Space". Where's the money going to come from? Who would invest to build or even live in loft apartments in that run down, drug infested, middle of nowhere neighborhood with noisy trains rattling the building every few minutes? You've got to be kidding. Senior apartments, low income housing, maybe, but young successful people, or older, wealthy, established tennants? No way. The new Avant building & the City Center building downtown were successful rebuilds with condos, hotel, and retail mixed in and can get those sought after tennants because they're in the downtown core with lots of culture all around. The East Side? It's too far off the beaten path for either the downtown area, Allentown, or the suburbs, and the building is partially surrounded by active rail or on the other side, a large swath of run down city housing that goes on for miles. What's the first rule of starting a buisiness? Location, location, location. There's a reason BCT was doomed to be abandoned. It happened the minute the NYC chose the spot on the map to build it. Even if it had been built in a better place like downtown, it's no sure thing it would have been able to be reused today. Other office towers have been rebuilt there, (Dulsky/Avant & Nermer/City Center) but larger buildings with a more specialized structure like the Aud didn't make it. The Hotel Statler may be the next BCT and that building is right across the street from City Hall, yet no one seems to be able to get anything done there either.

The high speed rail thing makes me laugh out loud too. That's NEVER going to happen here.

While I think the concept is a good idea, I agree, the location will kill it.

My brother in law who lives in Saratoga, lives in a converted church. I don't recall how many "living spaces" are inside the former church but it's absolutely beautiful, inside and out.

It amazes me that the east side has elected Mayor Brown yet nothing has changed for the better.

Railroaded wrote:"Master Plan" ? More like "Plan 9 From Outer Space". Where's the money going to come from? Who would invest to build or even live in loft apartments in that run down, drug infested, middle of nowhere neighborhood with noisy trains rattling the building every few minutes? You've got to be kidding.

Here's what I understand about the Master Plan. It is a document issued to help focus the efforts of the CRTC over the next few years. If everyone thought that areas in decline could not be rebuilt, then how do you explain successful developments across the country that are not unlike Central Terminal? It certainly is possible with careful planning and expertise. This is why CRTC is looking to partner with experienced developers who know how to manage projects like these. The CRTC is merely the steward of the property, looking to do what's best for preserving the structure and improving the neighborhood around it. The plan outlines several projects that are connected and work together, and they are not putting all of their eggs in one basket.

I, for one, strongly support their efforts. Plus, they have real, tangible results to show for their efforts over the last 13 years or so.

-otto-

Thanks, Otto. The big change in direction that has happened since the start of development of the Master Plan is that instead of us shopping the building around to developers to take over and do the whole thing, we felt we should retain some amount of involvement in the project. This would ensure that we have some control over the aspects that we feel are important to the public. So while we can work with one developer on redeveloping the tower, we can work with another on the baggage building, and at the same time ensure that the concourse remains "public space" to some degree and restoration of key elements is done according to guidelines. There are also potential tax benefits to developers in this type of arrangement.

This type of preservation project is neither easy nor quick, and certainly we've heard all the criticism before, but we're working towards an ultimate goal that everyone (especially those in this particular community) will be able to enjoy.

First, I applaud the work of the CTRC and would like nothing more than to see this wonderful building alive and vibrant. That said, it sits in what is arguably the worst part of Buffalo - blocks and blocks worth. I fear for the success of this Master Plan unless/until the city itself addresses the decrepit condition of the surrounding neighborhood.

161pw165 wrote:I fear for the success of this Master Plan unless/until the city itself addresses the decrepit condition of the surrounding neighborhood.

How do you think that happens? This is the first step. And quite frankly, the surrounding neighborhood is not that bad. I have seen FAR worse. There are decent, working people in those houses. The idea that BCT sits in the middle of a war zone is simply not true.

I did not say nor mean to imply it was a war zone, Otto. Nevertheless, as one who frequently drives Broadway from downtown to Frontier, I can't help but notice the visible degradation of the area the closer I get to the terminal area. Certainly there are good people in that area, and they deserve better from the city. My point is that the terminal restoration Master Plan should not be expected to, in and of itself, revitalize that neighborhood. Rather, it needs a parallel effort from the CITY to be successful - an effort that Buffalo government has not been the greatest at giving. That said, I HOPE I am proven wrong - I'd love to have one of the penthouse suites in the tower. I bet the view would be great.

Everyone must start somewhere...at some point the Cincinnati Union Terminal was going downhill as well. Although it wasn't allowed to go as far as the BCT they cleaned the building up and look at the success they have had. My belief is that the building will be somewhat like that in the future. A multi use building that appeals to everyone. Just look to the Michigan Central Station which is just behind the terminal in terms of the restoration process. After years of debate a group of people finally took hold of the building and are slowing trying to right a historic wrong. Cincinnati shows us that it is possible to do a complete 180 of old railroad structures.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Union_Terminal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Central_Station

As I've posted before, they should raise city hall and put those people in the BCT so they can have an up front view of what they refuse to deal with. But not much will happen because Byron Brown is more worried about his political image than he is being a mayor and taking care of his city. I love the BCT myself and would love to see its success as much as the next guy. But nothing is going to happen as long as the poeple who hold the money do nothing.

I have to say, I strongly support what has and is being done with the Buffalo Central Terminal. The area is improving. Much of the area off William St. is industrial and commercial .

I guess I could and would support what's happening there if we could somehow warp time back to somewhere, I don't know, say, around 1979 when the building was empty, but still solid as a rock. At the very least, I would take it back the late 80's when it was starting to get a little rough around the edges, but there was still something left to work with, it's just that in my mind, it's too far gone by now. Garbage in = garbage out.

I guess that's what bothers me the most, it was still in half way decent shape not all that long ago but the city allowed private owners to pillage it for everything it was worth and now all that hard work seems like too little too late.

Railroaded wrote:...it's just that in my mind, it's too far gone by now. Garbage in = garbage out.

Good thing that CTRC is relying on the opinion of professnal structural engineers who disagree with your asessment. If it was indeed "too far gone," I doubt the project would have the amount of support it has now.

I guess that's what bothers me the most, it was still in half way decent shape not all that long ago but the city allowed private owners to pillage it for everything it was worth...

That was indeed a damn shame... Aside from siezing the privately owned property to prevent the removalof materials, I don't see what could be done at that point. You can't change what happened in the past... Only replace and repair and restore.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Railroaded wrote:"Master Plan" ? More like "Plan 9 From Outer Space". Where's the money going to come from? Who would invest to build or even live in loft apartments in that run down, drug infested, middle of nowhere neighborhood with noisy trains rattling the building every few minutes? You've got to be kidding.

Here's what I understand about the Master Plan. It is a document issued to help focus the efforts of the CRTC over the next few years. If everyone thought that areas in decline could not be rebuilt, then how do you explain successful developments across the country that are not unlike Central Terminal?

Not in Western New York. It's worth remember that this area is in a state of demographic collapse. If Cleveland has lost 17% of its population in the last decade, you can only imagine how bad it is in places like Buffalo and Niagara Fall, NY.

I could feel hopeful, if there was any sign of real change, but there isn't. The same cycles seem to repeat over and over.

Otto Vondrak wrote: It certainly is possible with careful planning and expertise. This is why CRTC is looking to partner with experienced developers who know how to manage projects like these.

Yes, but it would require, not tens, but hundred of millions in taxpayer money. Yes, there are politically connected developers who've received tens of millions for renovation projects in this region, but with the current fiscal crisis, such efforts are garnering more scrutiny. Even those projects are on a tiny scale in comparison to BCT.

In the end, it isn't about "private enterprise," but spending taxpayer money.

Otto Vondrak wrote:The CRTC is merely the steward of the property, looking to do what's best for preserving the structure and improving the neighborhood around it. The plan outlines several projects that are connected and work together, and they are not putting all of their eggs in one basket.

So now the CRTC's mission statement encompasses improving the surrounding neighborhood. What's next? Maybe they can fix the rest of the region or take on Niagara Falls. Good luck with that.

What we're seeing in "mission creep." Stabilizing and securing the building was a modest goal and to the public benefit, as it was cheaper than demolition. Now that we have this grandiose plan, which no doubt would entail massive public expenditures, the public benefits aren't nearly as clearcut.

Otto Vondrak wrote:I, for one, strongly support their efforts. Plus, they have real, tangible results to show for their efforts over the last 13 years or so.

-otto-

Yes, so do I, but would you want to invest hundreds of millions of taxpayer into a facility that is so poorly located and such a poor candidate for redevelopment? I'm not about to suggest that it would happen all at once, but it seems very likely that millions in earmarks and member items would go to BCT, and I'm not sure that it's worthy of any taxpayer money at all.

terminalfanatic wrote:Everyone must start somewhere...at some point the Cincinnati Union Terminal was going downhill as well. Although it wasn't allowed to go as far as the BCT they cleaned the building up and look at the success they have had. My belief is that the building will be somewhat like that in the future. A multi use building that appeals to everyone.

The big difference is that very few people would actually want to go to BCT. It's a bad location and the area is served by 2 convenient locations already - 3 if you count Niagara Falls which isn't that far away.

Another advantage of Cincinnati Union Terminal is that the passenger concourse was properly demolished, not left abandoned and severed. Moreover, it was a commercial failure as a mall and was bailed out by the taxpayers. I'm glad that Cincinnati has a beautiful station for a 3 day per week train, but in reality, it has never been a commercial success.

terminalfanatic wrote:Just look to the Michigan Central Station which is just behind the terminal in terms of the restoration process. After years of debate a group of people finally took hold of the building and are slowing trying to right a historic wrong.

Not aware of that. Not in the news. That last I read about MCS was that the money wasn't there for a demolition. Still, it's utterly hopeless due to the location and the size of the building.

terminalfanatic wrote:Cincinnati shows us that it is possible to do a complete 180 of old railroad structures.

It was a complete failure as a private sector shopping mall, then the taxpayers stepped in with a bond issue for a museum. Not exactly a private sector success story.