334 Locomotives when and whom?

how long would it take to get a reliable engine design and to begin acceptance of said engines? is it really that bad to start to look for them when the existing equipment may be halfway through its "useable life"? add into that the fact that it may take time to get the funding appropriated to purchase the equipment.

While this is an opinion oriented forum, I find it interesting that those who do not operate the control stand of said eqpt. are the first to state the condition of said eqpt. and the lifespan of such based upon "written" documentation from the manufacturer and other sources.

I can appreciate your opinion about the useful lifespan of eqpt, but I don't respect the opinion about the condition of the motors, their functionality, the condition in which they are in unless the one providing the opinion is an actual employee working on the motor (engineer, mechanical, etc.).

I'm sorry, but if an Amtrak official study isn't a good enough source for you, what is?

I'm not questioning whether the locomotives need a half-life refurbishment, I am questioning if they need replacing so soon.

Just wanted to post some news on the topic and this looked like the best thread to continue.

If we remember the recent purchase of EMD by Caterpillar it appears that CAT is making a move to expand its offering instead of trying to part out EMD or change its focus. This news item here should be of specific interest to the Amtrak community.

In October 2010, Caterpillar Inc. announced it is investing US$50 million to acquire and to renovate an existing 740,000 square feet (69,000 m2) building for assembly of EMD branded locomotives and to build a locomotive test track on a 75 acres (0.30 km2) site located in Muncie, Indiana, United States. The Munice facility is expected to commence operations in late 2011 and will allow EMD to supply locomotives to publicly-funded passenger rail agencies that require their rail equipment to be assembled in the United States.

That's right EMD is building a US manufacturing facility and last I checked there weren't many State and Federal governments that needed domestically assembled freight locomotives. It appears that EMD is planning to re-enter the passenger rail market and is fed up with sub-contracting out the actual work of making them. Hopefully this will quiet down all of the naysayers who keep claiming that EMD was finished in the passenger market after the DE/DM-30 debacle (partly attributable to sub-contractor Super-Steel of Turboliner fame).

When Amtrak's diesels come up for replacement (probably the next time there is an Amtrak-friendly congress) that is going to be a pretty plum contract. I won't be surprised if EMD will want to demo any new designs with a commuter operator most likely Metra due to the Illinois connection. This will give them an established product when Amtrak goes shopping. It will be interesting to see what GE's response is, considering that they recently went the EMD route by partnering with MPI to produce a a small order for the MBTA. They could either come out with a new in-house design (P46AC anyone?) or just put their money behind MPI (although a 300 locomotive order could swamp them).

Anyway, I look forward to EMD re-entering the passenger rail market. Let's hope they stick with their rugged and reliable, high accelerating 2-cycle engine designs and deliver on the sort of attractive styling we came to expect before they got private equitied.

So will this new EMD plant be staffed with people experienced in manufacturing locomotives, or will they just be hiring locals and training them up? Cause it's great that EMD is opening a new plant in the US and it's even better that they're re-entering the passenger rail locomotive market, but if it's an entirely new manufacturing operation, you don't have much to base manufacturing quality off of. Especially seeing as locomotives, like most very large, specialized machinery, are for all intents and purposes custom jobs, quality will have a lot to do with the experience of those building them. Even if the designers and manufacturing engineers overseeing the plant are experienced hands from other parts of EMD, that alone can't overcome inexperience on the line.

Also, if EMD is now owned by CAT, will all new EMD locomotives be running only CAT diesels?

Let's hope that they get this plant up and running, that they start with some small orders to state rail operators, to build up their experience at this one plant and that they then after they start to get a solid quality footing, put in a bid on future diesel locomotives for Amtrak.

Jersey_Mike wrote:Anyway, I look forward to EMD re-entering the passenger rail market. Let's hope they stick with their rugged and reliable, high accelerating 2-cycle engine designs and deliver on the sort of attractive styling we came to expect before they got private equitied.

If only the DM/DE-30AC wasn't unreliable, too small (only fitting a 12-710, which is definitely inadequate for Amtrak's desires) and overly complex. The body shape does work for Amtrak's purposes though, since it fits through all the low-clearance areas, and it's a particularly attractive and compact design.

EMD's best bet might be to offer Amtrak three models, based loosely on the DE-30AC: an F70PHACe powered by the 16-710 alone, an F70ACe-2C with an additional HEP motor (freeing up the full 4300 hp for traction), and an F80PHACe with the 20-710. Of those, the F70ACe-2C seems like it'd be the most reliable and powerful option. Perhaps EMD has something else up its sleeve though - the H-engine recently made a comeback in the JT56ACe, and there are comparable Caterpillar engines in the same range.

I would hope that Cat doesn't feel the need to use its own engines because I just don't think they would have the durability for heavy duty locomotive service. I would also assume that they would start fresh instead of trying to polish off the DM/DE turd. I think EMD should instead focus on its more successful F59 model that not only works, but also looks good. Drop the height so it can fit under overhead lines and extend the length to fit an 710-16 and you've got a winner. Just think of a PL42 with a nose job.

There is a good question regarding if prime-mover supplied HEP is preferable to pony engine HEP. The new GE commuter engine offers 4600hp, but you're looking at about a 400hp loss from the on-shaft HEP. An F70-2C would be able to supply about the same HP for traction 42/4300hp as the GE plus thre could be fuel savings be allowing the prime movers to idle (no more "Screaming Thunderboxes"). You also have the advantage of being able to shut down an engine and not lose HEP. This allows the working loco to still provide full traction power in the event of a failure (or allows the HAVC to stay on if there is only a single diesel).

I don't know if their 1010 engine would be suitable for passenger operations as it might still have some lingering reliability issues if subjected to frequently changing load requirements.

lets stop inventing models, EMD was bought by Caterpillar to showcase their medium speed diesels, not to polish the EMD polution turds.
and to counter engines like the MTU/Detroit 4000 series.

KV1guy wrote:As previvously mentioned....its down right pathetic that these units have detiorated to the point they have. Poor maintence is to blame....and some of you here that dont actually run these units pretend to know otherwise. The REAL issue is the lack of funds to keep these units maintained....as well as the fact that GE builds junk. GE's initial quality and pricing cant be beat.....perfect for the American Railroad market and the bean counter's that run them. If someone could take the technology of a GE and use the durable parts of a EMD....THAT would be one hell of a locomotive. Its Chevy vs BMW.

Amtrak started operating F40PHs locomotives in 1976. 16 years later Amtrak started replacing them with P40DC locomotives in 1992. Amtrak is still operating P40DC locomotives 18 years later in 2010.

I find it difficult to agree that GE locomotives are junk in comparison with F40PH locomotives.

We definitely don't need to invent models, but Caterpillar itself said they want to build passenger diesels under the EMD name in Muncie. Whether or not it's a white lie to get more government and local goodwill, I can't see them turning down a legitimate opportunity to make money on passenger equipment, especially now that MPI is working with GE. And, unless Cat-EMD goes overseas for a licensed design, they don't have many options - either the PL42AC, an F59PHI retread, or something new in the -70 or -69 series. Considering Amtrak's current motive power, I can't imagine them going for the second, and even the first is only comparable to the Genesis, so the third option makes sense for the future.

electricron wrote:I find it difficult to agree that GE locomotives are junk in comparison with F40PH locomotives.

and how many locomotives did you operate or maintain ????????????????????????????

Amtrak started operating F40PHs locomotives in 1976. 16 years later Amtrak started replacing them with P40DC locomotives in 1992. Amtrak is still operating P40DC locomotives 18 years later in 2010.

Amtrak buys engines when Congress gives it money. Look to commuter operators to get a better idea of the operational lifetime of the F40s. Amtrak also could save money by using 4200hp locomotives instead of 3200hp as they were able to replace 3 F40's with 2 P42s on many LD trains.

lets stop inventing models, EMD was bought by Caterpillar to showcase their medium speed diesels, not to polish the EMD polution turds.
and to counter engines like the MTU/Detroit 4000 series.

Well we'll see what they do. I think Cat knew that its existing line of stationary and road diesels could not match the performance and reliability of one designed from scratch for a rail environment. Designs like the Alco 251 and EMD 567/645/710 line just don't quit and are out performing Cat offerings for the non-genset rebuild market. Recently Cat has been buying firms to bring their technologies in-house, not to extend Cat's own technologies to new markets. They just bought Bucyrus International not to replace its product line with their own, but to incorporate its products into its existing range.

Anyway I think its great that we are looking at a new entrant into the passenger diesel market. Hopefully they will pair the existing reliability of the EMD product line with new passenger diesel technology without having to buy too much of the kit from an outside supplier.