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ARC Tunnel - Revisited (Again)

Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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Re: ARC Tunnel - revisited (again)

  by Jtgshu
 
Tri-State Tom wrote:nyswfan -
Keep in mind that 50 yrs ago, there were still terminals in Jersey City that were being used.
Understand but, as I indicated above, my reference is 35-40 years ago. The Erie started moving operations to Hoboken in 1956 and by the time of the 1960 merger, everything was based in Hoboken for the ERIE-LACKAWANNA.
Its actually pretty easy to explain

1) There were many more MU sets before Midtown Direct. Pretty much all trains on MandE were MUs. MUs can easily be split/added to, and take up much less yard space than a push pull set (a whole car pretty much for an equal amount of passengers because of the loco)

2) Way back when, the DLW had more outlying points to store equipment. Montclair Terminal, South Orange, Summit, Morristown and Dover.

3) Less trains were run. Im not too familar with the Erie side of operations, but the PVL only recently got all day service, while there have been pretty signicant additions to Main/Bergen trains over the past few years that im aware of. Im sure things over there on the Hoboken side were no differnet than the rest of the railroad in the "bad old days" - there has still been service additions over the past 10 years at least compared to 30/40 years ago.

4) Bay Head trains (and the 1 RVL set now) were never were in Hoboken before 1991? before the waterfront connection was built They take up most of HIll Yard while layover during the day. That 6 or 7 trains I think (at least currently, this number seems to change with each schedule change).

5) Remember, some of the yard tracks in Hoboken are specific sizes, and can only fit certain length trains, so that limits capacity in that sense. You cannot add more cars to certain trains because there is no place to store it later on. So some trains sit in the Depot all day, because there is no yard space, or the yard space available doesn't fit that train. Again this is an issue with loco hauled trains, as the loco takes up the space of a car. For example, there is free space for a 3 car loco hauled set, but the trains that are coming into there are 4-5-6 car sets. They can't use that track.

Contrary to what some folks want to believe, Hoboken is FAR from dead, and with the death of ARC, Hoboken is going to have to step up and be busier as its the only other option east of Newark now. And now a major choke point in the future (well, it is now too) is going to be Newark Penn. So much so I think that I woudln't be surprised if Broad St. Elizabeth is seriously looked at as a destination for some RVL trains, or West Trenton or Phillipsburg or whereever trains, if they are ever built, simply because there won't be any room in Newark Penn or on the NEC for these trains to go.

  by PullmanCo
 
Contrary to what some folks want to believe, Hoboken is FAR from dead, and with the death of ARC, Hoboken is going to have to step up and be busier as its the only other option east of Newark now. And now a major choke point in the future (well, it is now too) is going to be Newark Penn. So much so I think that I woudln't be surprised if Broad St. Elizabeth is seriously looked at as a destination for some RVL trains, or West Trenton or Phillipsburg or whereever trains, if they are ever built, simply because there won't be any room in Newark Penn or on the NEC for these trains to go
Broad Street in Elizabeth? Sus scrofa on the wing is more likely, perhaps. But if you want to speculate on that, then trains could possibly still run to Hoboken via the former NY&LB going towards Oak Island, via the LVRR bridge through Greenville, then the National Docks Branch towards Hoboken...but would NJT be willing to even rebuild the CNJ main line to Broad Street Elizabeth what with Alpharma using the former Elmora Station location as a parking lot and building prefab buildings and fences on the right of way?

Re:

  by Jtgshu
 
PullmanCo wrote:
Contrary to what some folks want to believe, Hoboken is FAR from dead, and with the death of ARC, Hoboken is going to have to step up and be busier as its the only other option east of Newark now. And now a major choke point in the future (well, it is now too) is going to be Newark Penn. So much so I think that I woudln't be surprised if Broad St. Elizabeth is seriously looked at as a destination for some RVL trains, or West Trenton or Phillipsburg or whereever trains, if they are ever built, simply because there won't be any room in Newark Penn or on the NEC for these trains to go
Broad Street in Elizabeth? Sus scrofa on the wing is more likely, perhaps. But if you want to speculate on that, then trains could possibly still run to Hoboken via the former NY&LB going towards Oak Island, via the LVRR bridge through Greenville, then the National Docks Branch towards Hoboken...but would NJT be willing to even rebuild the CNJ main line to Broad Street Elizabeth what with Alpharma using the former Elmora Station location as a parking lot and building prefab buildings and fences on the right of way?
Bypassing Newark Penn might have to be an option in the future, you never know. I can see it happening.....newark is just too much of a choke point.

If Alpharma is encroaching on the ROW, well, then thats their problem. Shouldn't have built it there in the first place. Prefab means can be moved.....id love to run a Geep down there and just push everything out of the way :)

Re: ARC Tunnel - revisited (again)

  by Tom V
 
Wow, hats off to New York.

First their Senators announce they are going go after the $3 Billion in Federal funding originally dedicated for NJ's Hudson river tunnel project, now newly elected Governor Andrew Cuomo announces he's going after $1.26 Billion in rail funds that two Mid-Western States are going to turn down. Those States's newly elected Republican Governors are taking their cues from NJ Governor Christie by killing rail projects in their States.

Governor elect Cuomo wants to put the $1.26 Billion towards high speed rail between NYC and Montreal and Toronto.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/andy ... gBUGYvFTvN

Governor Christie, why didn't you try to get this $1.26 Billion to help with your projected overruns with ARC. Unless of of course your intention was always to kill ARC, now matter what actual cost projections were or what other funding was available.

So Ohio got the $400 Million in Race to the Top Education funding Christie's gaffe cost New Jersey, now killing ARC is going to cost us $3 Billion in Federal funds that will go to fund New York projects. And an additional $1.26 Billion in Federal rail funding that Christie could have pursued for NJ just might go to New York. Giving New York potentially $4.26 Billion, wow.

Why is Governor Christie even bothering, close NJ Transit down. If your not going to fund or plan for the future, or to address long standing deficiencies why bother having a State wide rail network anyway. Close NJ Transit and contract the bus services out to private companies.

Re: ARC Tunnel - revisited (again)

  by Taborite
 
Tom V wrote:Wow, hats off to New York.

First their Senators announce they are going go after the $3 Billion in Federal funding originally dedicated for NJ's Hudson river tunnel project, now newly elected Governor Andrew Cuomo announces he's going after $1.26 Billion in rail funds that two Mid-Western States are going to turn down. Those States's newly elected Republican Governors are taking their cues from NJ Governor Christie by killing rail projects in their States.

Governor elect Cuomo wants to put the $1.26 Billion towards high speed rail between NYC and Montreal and Toronto.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/andy ... gBUGYvFTvN

Governor Christie, why didn't you try to get this $1.26 Billion to help with your projected overruns with ARC. Unless of of course your intention was always to kill ARC, now matter what actual cost projections were or what other funding was available.

So Ohio got the $400 Million in Race to the Top Education funding Christie's gaffe cost New Jersey, now killing ARC is going to cost us $3 Billion in Federal funds that will go to fund New York projects. And an additional $1.26 Billion in Federal rail funding that Christie could have pursued for NJ just might go to New York. Giving New York potentially $4.26 Billion, wow.

Why is Governor Christie even bothering, close NJ Transit down. If your not going to fund or plan for the future, or to address long standing deficiencies why bother having a State wide rail network anyway. Close NJ Transit and contract the bus services out to private companies.
This would mean diverting "New Starts" money to fund overruns on an existing project, which as I understand it is a big no-no.

Source: A letter from FTA administrator Peter Rogoff to Senator Dodd, specifically refuting the suggestion earlier in the year.

Re: ARC Tunnel - revisited (again)

  by Tom V
 
Taborite wrote:
Tom V wrote:Wow, hats off to New York.

First their Senators announce they are going go after the $3 Billion in Federal funding originally dedicated for NJ's Hudson river tunnel project, now newly elected Governor Andrew Cuomo announces he's going after $1.26 Billion in rail funds that two Mid-Western States are going to turn down. Those States's newly elected Republican Governors are taking their cues from NJ Governor Christie by killing rail projects in their States.

Governor elect Cuomo wants to put the $1.26 Billion towards high speed rail between NYC and Montreal and Toronto.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/andy ... gBUGYvFTvN

Governor Christie, why didn't you try to get this $1.26 Billion to help with your projected overruns with ARC. Unless of of course your intention was always to kill ARC, now matter what actual cost projections were or what other funding was available.

So Ohio got the $400 Million in Race to the Top Education funding Christie's gaffe cost New Jersey, now killing ARC is going to cost us $3 Billion in Federal funds that will go to fund New York projects. And an additional $1.26 Billion in Federal rail funding that Christie could have pursued for NJ just might go to New York. Giving New York potentially $4.26 Billion, wow.

Why is Governor Christie even bothering, close NJ Transit down. If your not going to fund or plan for the future, or to address long standing deficiencies why bother having a State wide rail network anyway. Close NJ Transit and contract the bus services out to private companies.
This would mean diverting "New Starts" money to fund overruns on an existing project, which as I understand it is a big no-no.

Source: A letter from FTA administrator Peter Rogoff to Senator Dodd, specifically refuting the suggestion earlier in the year.
The funding could have gone towards the Portal Bridge replacement project, Portal bridge replacement was grouped together with ARC when Christie was citing cost figures. However Portal bridge is not part of ARC, it's a separate project. With or without ARC Portal bridge needs to be replaced, however with this Governor that's not happening.

More, delays coming. I really feel for the thousands of hard working NJ residents who rely on NJ Transit everyday to get them to work. ARC would have meant in about seven years relief in crowding, and Portal Bridge would have meant the elimination of one of the most notorious delay generators in the NJ Transit rail network. Now they system is just going to get older, more crowded and less reliable. Makes for a miserable existence.

Re: ARC Tunnel - revisited (again)

  by Defiant
 
Tom V wrote: Why is Governor Christie even bothering, close NJ Transit down. If your not going to fund or plan for the future, or to address long standing deficiencies why bother having a State wide rail network anyway. Close NJ Transit and contract the bus services out to private companies.
Tom V I agree with your analysis of Christie's actions regarding the tunnel. It was a stupid decision and very unfair to the NJ residents who counted on improved commute to NYC. However, I doubt he really plans to close NJT. He might start with starving it of subsidies though.

Fortunately, he has 3 years left in his term. I think it is up to us who care about the public transportation in NJ to let him know how important NJT is for our daily lives. I have written him a letter already and I urge everyone else to do the same. Is there a public transportation advocacy group in NJ?

Re: ARC Tunnel - revisited (again)

  by TheTroll
 
Tom V wrote: contract the bus services out to private companies.
Have you seen the side of Academy, DeCamp, Trans-Bridge, Lakeland, Suburban/Coach USA, and Red & Tan lines? Already done in some cases. Off topic I know, but I couldn't help myself. Right JT? :P

  by PullmanCo
 
Governor Christie, why didn't you try to get this $1.26 Billion to help with your projected overruns with ARC. Unless of of course your intention was always to kill ARC, now matter what actual cost projections were or what other funding was available
Clearly LaHood wasn't serious about keeping the project alive.

Re: ARC Tunnel - revisited (again)

  by Roadgeek Adam
 
TheTroll wrote:
Tom V wrote: contract the bus services out to private companies.
Have you seen the side of Academy, DeCamp, Trans-Bridge, Lakeland, Suburban/Coach USA, and Red & Tan lines? Already done in some cases. Off topic I know, but I couldn't help myself. Right JT? :P
I want to hope NJ Transit kicks Academy out of the business. The unreliability of the 814 is beginning to piss me off. Buses growing later and later delays.

Re:

  by jb9152
 
PullmanCo wrote:
Governor Christie, why didn't you try to get this $1.26 Billion to help with your projected overruns with ARC. Unless of of course your intention was always to kill ARC, now matter what actual cost projections were or what other funding was available
Clearly LaHood wasn't serious about keeping the project alive.
Bingo.

Re: Re:

  by blockline4180
 
jb9152 wrote:
PullmanCo wrote:
Governor Christie, why didn't you try to get this $1.26 Billion to help with your projected overruns with ARC. Unless of of course your intention was always to kill ARC, now matter what actual cost projections were or what other funding was available
Clearly LaHood wasn't serious about keeping the project alive.
Bingo.

I 2nd the (m)notion!!
I find it very annoying that no one is blaming LaHood or the Obama administration for failing to provide the neccessary monies to keep ARC going!
I thought I read in several articles in which Christie stated "if the gov't(meaning Washington) would put up the money then obviously the work would continue!

Re: Re:

  by korbermeister
 
Jtgshu wrote:
PullmanCo wrote:
Contrary to what some folks want to believe, Hoboken is FAR from dead, and with the death of ARC, Hoboken is going to have to step up and be busier as its the only other option east of Newark now. And now a major choke point in the future (well, it is now too) is going to be Newark Penn. So much so I think that I woudln't be surprised if Broad St. Elizabeth is seriously looked at as a destination for some RVL trains, or West Trenton or Phillipsburg or whereever trains, if they are ever built, simply because there won't be any room in Newark Penn or on the NEC for these trains to go
Broad Street in Elizabeth? Sus scrofa on the wing is more likely, perhaps. But if you want to speculate on that, then trains could possibly still run to Hoboken via the former NY&LB going towards Oak Island, via the LVRR bridge through Greenville, then the National Docks Branch towards Hoboken...but would NJT be willing to even rebuild the CNJ main line to Broad Street Elizabeth what with Alpharma using the former Elmora Station location as a parking lot and building prefab buildings and fences on the right of way?
Bypassing Newark Penn might have to be an option in the future, you never know. I can see it happening.....newark is just too much of a choke point. I'd Love to Watch that!

If Alpharma is encroaching on the ROW, well, then thats their problem. Shouldn't have built it there in the first place. Prefab means can be moved.....id love to run a Geep down there and just push everything out of the way :)

Re: ARC Tunnel - revisited (again)

  by ns3010
 
He thought that Jt's post was so important, it should just be said again! :-)

Re: ARC Tunnel - revisited (again)

  by Jtgshu
 
ns3010 wrote:He thought that Jt's post was so important, it should just be said again! :-)
HAHAHHA i was wondering the same thing :)

Another reason for some routing of RVL trains or really any other line that MIGHT use the RVL/Lehigh Line away from Newark Penn and the LL is possible explosion of freight traffic after some improvements are finished at various PA ports, and Bayonne. NJT might find it easier to rebuild the existing track to Elizabeth via the CNJ rather than deal with the increasing freight interferenece and delays. Sooner or later a 3rd track is going to have to be built on the LL for existing RVL trains, but Hunter is still going to be a headache, even if a new track is built over the NEC to come donw on the track 1 (NEC) side of things. Newark just has wayyyy to many trains, and the slightest delay of an RVL train gets it out of its weaved in slot especially when running east/west on track 4 inbetween Hunter and Dock.

Check the NY forum and the Southern Tier/East of Binghamton thread....lots of interesting reading in there, and its not much of a leap to think that there are two ways out of the area for NS freight pretty much - the Southern Tier or the Lehigh Line. Either way is going to affect NJT trains A LOT...........
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