Proposed PATCO Expansion

DRPA rail plans delayed by funding shortfall

The Philadelphia Inquirer wrote:State funding has been held up for a proposed commuter rail line between Glassboro and Camden, victim of a troubled Transportation Trust Fund and a tough economy.

Then-Gov. Jon S. Corzine promised last year to provide $500 million to the Delaware River Port Authority for the $1.5 billion, 18-mile rail line. The money was to come from the Transportation Trust Fund, which is funded with gas-tax revenues and borrowed money.

The DRPA was counting on up to $9 million of that aid to pay for an environmental impact statement that is required before work can proceed on the rail line. The environmental study money, to be provided by NJ Transit, has not been forthcoming.

Meanwhile, the DRPA is holding about $427,000 in bills submitted by engineering consultant STV Inc. for the environmental work, which has slowed dramatically.

There ya go, boys & girls.

I hear the sound of the other shoe dropping.

Good grief! Sigh...all of that money could have been spent to buy new PATCO cars!

Tritransit Area wrote:Good grief! Sigh...all of that money could have been spent to buy new PATCO cars!

Good grief! Sigh...all of that money could have been spent to give DRPA Executives bonuses!

Now why does that not surprise me,could it be its in SOUTH Jersey.Do I see a pattern here?

Clearfield wrote:

Tritransit Area wrote:Good grief! Sigh...all of that money could have been spent to buy new PATCO cars!

Good grief! Sigh...all of that money could have been spent to give DRPA Executives bonuses!

LOL

Here's the latest on the Glassboro line. http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20101 ... _DRPA.html. On the one hand it's great news that this project has finally been taken out of the hands of the Deleware River Pork Authority. This would at least allow a one seat ride to either Trenton or the Aquarium as NJT will connect into their own line as PATCO was not willing to do that and was going to dead end at the WR Trans. Center and require a transfer. The bad part is it's looking more and more like funding won't be available for this and this will just be another series of expensive studies payed to politically connected consultents that will go nowhere.

nayaugpark52 wrote:Here's the latest on the Glassboro line. http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20101 ... _DRPA.html. On the one hand it's great news that this project has finally been taken out of the hands of the Deleware River Pork Authority.

Not really. I have no love (to put it mildly) for DRPA, but with DRPA as the lead agency, there was always the possibility of revisiting the modal selection (DLRT) thanks to the oversight that DRPA has incurred because of all the nonsense that has happened. If the project is moved to NJ Transit control, the chances of changing to PATCO Light Rail are virtually nonexistent. Just as many within the North Jersey community of rail advocates see the current ARC tunnel configuration as less than idea, and are happy to have the project reconsidered, I would submit that there is a better option, and that the mode selection should be reviewed -- especially before DRPA and NJ spend the amount of money already spent on ARC to date.

This would at least allow a one seat ride to either Trenton or the Aquarium as NJT will connect into their own line as PATCO was not willing to do that and was going to dead end at the WR Trans. Center and require a transfer. The bad part is it's looking more and more like funding won't be available for this and this will just be another series of expensive studies payed to politically connected consultents that will go nowhere.

The Philadelphia CBD is the destination for the greatest number of potential passengers in the corridor. That is why it is so important to provide a one-seat ride which will allow the project to be attractive to the largest number of potential passengers.

One other unfortunate side effect may a change in perspective that this ia a "New Jersey" project, rather than a Delaware Valley regional project -- which is what it is. Building on your point, nayuagpark52, how the project survives in this environment, with no obvious source of funding at this point, is an open question.

I've beeen saying since Christie was elected that he would eventually cancel the project. I have yet to be proven right, but I'm more certain than ever that he will.

The DRPA never seriously considered a PATCO type line to Camden due to the tremendous cost. They can't even get their act together for this simple project which is basically just upgrading what is already there. A one seat ride to Philadelphia is the best option but it won't happen as it would require a tunnel or bridge to be built to Philadelphia as the capacity on the Ben Franklin isn't there. As I've pointed out in previous posts, I was part of the project to see if the Riverline could use the Ben Franklin to go to Philadelphia and it just can't be done during the rush hours, which would be the most beneficial time to do it. With the DRPA you weren't even going to get a one seat ride to the E-Center as the plan, told to me by one of their "expert consultants", was to dead end the line at Walter Rand and not tie into anything. My personal opinion: I've always believed the DRPA wasn't that interested in seeing this project come to fruition, but was very exited about the numerous studies that could be done by their cronies at politically connected law and consultant firms. Think the Deleware River Tram Project and their other fiascos. I haven't seen anything yet that would prove me wrong. At least TNJ has the expertice and will actually build it if the money is there. I feel you're right on target with Christie. I can't see him allowing this type of money to go to South Jersey. If that happens it's another huge waste of the taxpayer's money with only the DRPA's toadies getting the payoff. For the latest DRPA chaos check this out. http://www.courierpostonline.com/articl ... 1006/RSS01

To me it made the most sense to just extend the River Line south to Glassboro via the Conrail line. Grade crossings and 3rd rail issues go away. I guess it made too much sense?

The Hudson-Bergen Light Rail is a NJ Transit entity, but offers no single-seat ride into NYC, yet it's successful. It's more of a bang for the buck issue...ARC would get it before this would, and even ARC is up in the air...

given the line was not to be across the delaware this makes the most sense. in retrospect, DRPA should have just improved the current PATCO line with more parking or an extension. the cost of tunneling for one line is prohibitive. if PATCO ever needs a tunnel, it might be worth it to stick two or three lines in it but until then, ridership isn't great enough. as it turns out , DRPA has run out of money through poor management and reckless spending. I suspect a similar fate awaits the casino trolley on the Philly side as well.

cpontani wrote:To me it made the most sense to just extend the River Line south to Glassboro via the Conrail line. Grade crossings and 3rd rail issues go away. I guess it made too much sense?

I am going to assume that you mean extend south from Entertainment Center Station. The segment between there and Bulson Street (the point where the DRPA-planned alignment would be joined) would require a significant amount of grade seperation to eliminate conflict with truck traffic associated with the Port of Camden and the adjacent industrial zone.

The PATCO light rail mode mentioned in my recent post would not have required 3rd rail or grade crossing eliminations in the suburban areas.

The Hudson-Bergen Light Rail is a NJ Transit entity, but offers no single-seat ride into NYC, yet it's successful. It's more of a bang for the buck issue...ARC would get it before this would, and even ARC is up in the air...

Apples and Oranges. Let's look at Hudson County as the consolidated City/County (like Philadelphia) that it should be, rather than the collection of municipalities that it is now. With a population of 595,419 (2008 est.), and one of the highest population densities in the U.S., this perspective is justified. Hudson County is a city in it's own right, with almost as many people as Washington D.C. Add in the population of the surrounding NJ counties, and there is a significant market for a system that serves the intra-state travel demand within the city of Hudson County.

Contrast the situation in South Jersey. Camden has only 75,000 people, and nowhere near the number of employment destinations. The only stream of passengers significant enough to justify a rail system is the rush hour commuter to and from Philadelphia. Intra-state travel is a very desirable side benefit, but is not large enough to justify rail.

Suburban Station wrote:given the line was not to be across the delaware this makes the most sense. in retrospect, DRPA should have just improved the current PATCO line with more parking or an extension. the cost of tunneling for one line is prohibitive. if PATCO ever needs a tunnel, it might be worth it to stick two or three lines in it but until then, ridership isn't great enough. as it turns out , DRPA has run out of money through poor management and reckless spending. I suspect a similar fate awaits the casino trolley on the Philly side as well.

Two things,
I love the idea of building a tunnel for three lines (Woodbury/Millville/Cape May; Mt. Holly/McGuire AFB/Toms River; ACL), but think that the current PATCO should still be kept separate.

Since the DRPA has to stay in debt to continue existing, of course they'll be clueless as to how to properly handle such matter.

south jersey trains wrote:Now why does that not surprise me,could it be its in SOUTH Jersey.Do I see a pattern here?

In this case, no. I do see a pattern in that no-one in Trenton is making a stand, but think it's more the DRPA sucking at life more than anything else.

I'm suprised that nobody posted this --

From the Inquirer: DRPA won't run Glassboro-Camden rail line

The Philadelphia Inquirer wrote: A proposed commuter-rail line between Glassboro and Camden won't be built or operated by the DRPA, officials said Wednesday (10/6/10).

In the last few years, as the DRPA directed the process for selecting a route, arranging for environmental studies, and laying the groundwork for possible federal funding, the agency left open the possibility that its PATCO subsidiary could operate the line.

Matheussen said that would not happen. "NJ Transit is the more solid candidate to operate this."

I did post that. You even responded to it on October 7th. Here's the latest on the project-- http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/20 ... ?viewAll=y

nayaugpark52 wrote:Here's the latest on the Woodbury line. http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/20 ... tfall.html

Wow, I guess I'm approaching senior moment phase faster than I think.