• Transitizing the commuter lines / PA Commuter Rail

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by Pacobell73
 
Matthew Mitchell wrote:And I wouldn't take the trail leases as part of some larger plan--each of them makes sense in its own context, and I think it's coincidental that they were all done around the same time.
Coincidental? Matt, you're kidding me, right? How naive. They all "make sense" because a politician with votes on his mind and wealthy constituents tugging on his pinstriped suit pushed these trails. Perhaps the Cynwyd Heritage Trail makes some sense, since the R6 Norristown line is right across the way.

But severing the Bethlehem line for good? A double track main line makes more sense as a trail than a "rails with trails?"

But this is where I am totally blown away. DVARP has always supported resto of the Newtown line (good!), but the conversion of Abington's section to a trail makes sense? And the Newtown trail was a hush-hush job done by Abington Ward 2/Robert Wachter, Esq and his wealthy constituents living in the Tall Trees Housing Community. That makes sense? They will fight for that trail to stay in place tooth and nail, and SEPTA knows that. So that advances SEPTA's agenda for keeping the Newtown line shut.

Has DVARP totally been absorbed into SEPTA's warped logic? I just saw this posted elsewhere. SEPTA is the new National City Lines.
Last edited by Pacobell73 on Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
  by BuddSilverliner269
 
Pacobell73 wrote:
Matthew Mitchell wrote:And I wouldn't take the trail leases as part of some larger plan--each of them makes sense in its own context, and I think it's coincidental that they were all done around the same time.
Coincidental? How naive. They all "make sense" because a politician with votes on his mind and wealthy constituents tugging on his pinstriped suit pushed these trails. Perhaps the Cynwyd Heritage Trail makes some sense, since the R6 Norristown line is right across the way. But severing the Bethlehem line for good? A double track main line makes more sense as a trail than a "rails with trails?" And the Newtown trail was a hush-hush job done by Abington Ward 2/Robert Wachter and his wealthy constituents living in the Tall Trees Housing Community. That makes sense?

Has DVARP totally been absorbed into SEPTA's warped logic? I just saw this posted elsewhere. SEPTA is the new National City Lines.
Paco, your feelings about DVARP is shared by me and everyone I worked with at Septa.
  by Pacobell73
 
BuddSilverliner269 wrote:Paco, your feelings about DVARP is shared by me and everyone I worked with at Septa.
Thank you, BuddSilverliner269. I am ashamed to have that opinion, because at one time, DVARP really was a powerhouse. They called a spade a spade, commended SEPTA on their good projects, but called them out on the duds (SVM). It is a very different group now. I understand that politics is about give and take, checks and balances, etc. But as a rail advocacy group, I am afraid DVARP has chosen the path of least resistance and pretty much just advocates SEPTA. Arguments and objections are slight at best.

DVARP stating that the rail trails makes sense? Shameful. The Perkiomen trail makes sense. The Bethlehem trail and the Newtown Pennypack trail? That just helped SEPTA dispose of deisel lines they wish they never purchased but can still make $$$ of off. In fact, I am curious how much in tariffs and trail leases SEPTA earns on their unused lines. Meanwhile, road congestion gets worse by the day.
Last edited by Pacobell73 on Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
  by bikentransit
 
I think we need a new thread: Trailizing the commuter lines. How shameful that the politicians in PA roll over and play dead while SEPTA signs away rights to a double tracked main line, a double tracked electrified line to Ivy Ridge, and a suburban commuter line in the middle of Bucks County.

To think, once upon a time SEPTA served Allentown. Now we're hanging on to what's left?? States across the county are adding lines, and SEPTA's turning them into trails.

Its all smoke and mirrors. SEPTA spends lots of money on nonsense, they cry broke and can't operate service or resume service on lines they cut, and then design parts of the system to make it prohibitively expensive to ever expand. Not to mention, every time a SEPTA General Manager retires, they get a very generous severance package. If only the public knew what Faye Moore, Lou Gambiccini, Jack Leary and the rest of the retired GM's in the sky got, there'd be a hanging on Market Street. Even with all the budget problems in NJ, Gov. Christie hasn't axed a single transit project. Sure, alot is unfunded, but NJT makes significant progress with our rail system every year. SEPTA who claims to be fiscally conservative is always broke. Maybe because the money is being laundered to the construction firms who are building million dollar bus loops in the city.


You guys should be calling Tom Corbett and get him to do to SEPTA what he did to those judges in Luzerne County. Put em all behind bars starting with the #1 money guy at SEPTA, and he knows he's being watched. Maybe it will be a matter of time before the state attorney general's office descends on SEPTA HQ.
  by swedishmeatball83
 
oknazevad wrote:Full disclaimer: I've removed that boldfaced passage multiple times from the article, as the only sources offered are a dozen years old at newest, and were from Rumorpace, er, I mean Railpace. I frankly don't believe there's any validity to the idea that SEPTA is currently pursuing so-called "transitization". After all, if they were trying to make the Regional Rail more subway-like, why would they be getting rid of the transitesque route numbers?!? I think it is a dead letter issue.
Sir, let me get this straight. Because you feel there is no validity to the idea that SEPTA is or was pushing "transitization," you took it upon yourself to delete the mention of it from the Wikipedia article? And because you feel Railpace spins rumors (I am sure the writers and contributors would find that less than flattering) and you deem this entire discussion a "dead letter issue," you feel the world at large should not know about it and the mention of it should be deleted. It does not matter how old the sources are - that would be like trying to erase history. Are you the final word on this transitization? Unless something is published to counteract what was discussed in those 1995 articles, they stand as sources and legit ones. Plus, Railpace is not exactly propaganda. You are guilty of sockpuppeting.
Last edited by swedishmeatball83 on Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
  by Pacobell73
 
bikentransit wrote:How shameful that the politicians in PA roll over and play dead while SEPTA signs away rights to a double tracked main line, a double tracked electrified line to Ivy Ridge, and a suburban commuter line in the middle of Bucks County.

To think, once upon a time SEPTA served Allentown. Now we're hanging on to what's left?? States across the county are adding lines, and SEPTA's turning them into trails.

Its all smoke and mirrors. SEPTA spends lots of money on nonsense, they cry broke and can't operate service or resume service on lines they cut, and then design parts of the system to make it prohibitively expensive to ever expand. Not to mention, every time a SEPTA General Manager retires, they get a very generous severance package. If only the public knew what Faye Moore, Lou Gambiccini, Jack Leary and the rest of the retired GM's in the sky got, there'd be a hanging on Market Street. Even with all the budget problems in NJ, Gov. Christie hasn't axed a single transit project. Sure, a lot is unfunded, but NJT makes significant progress with our rail system every year. SEPTA who claims to be fiscally conservative is always broke. Maybe because the money is being laundered to the construction firms who are building million dollar bus loops in the city.
bikentransit, you've hit the nail on the head 10x over. A big problem with SEPTA is that Harrisburg has zero oversight of them. Many other states work in conjunction with their respective transit organizations. In PA, SEPTA runs loose because the politicians sit in their comfy chairs in Harrisburg and say 'SEPTA knows what they're doing.' A fire needs to be put under the state attorney general's arse.

Perhaps in another five years, we can do a nice walking tour of SEPTA's rail trails because there will be more of those than commuter lines.
  by oknazevad
 
copythisusername wrote:
I think that where possible (i.e. places where the regional rail system has been removed from FRA guidelines), "transitization" should be the goal.
The flaw in this otherwise solid logic is that none of the RRD is outside FRA juristiction. None at all. Nor will it be, because of the neccessity of most SEPTA trains to share rails with Amtrak and/or freight at some point. That, as much as anything, is why such "transitization" attempts (the "trolley driver" ideas mentioned a few posts back) were shot down.
  by Matthew Mitchell
 
bikentransit wrote:You guys should be calling Tom Corbett and get him to do to SEPTA what he did to those judges in Luzerne County. Put em all behind bars starting with the #1 money guy at SEPTA, and he knows he's being watched. Maybe it will be a matter of time before the state attorney general's office descends on SEPTA HQ.
I must say this is breathtaking in its hyperbole and detachment from reality. The Attorney General's office is in the business of identifying crimes and other violations of law, and making decisions we don't agree with isn't against the law.
  by Matthew Mitchell
 
Pacobell73 wrote:A big problem with SEPTA is that Harrisburg has zero oversight of them. [rest of rant omitted]
Almost, but not up to the level of 'bikentransit'
The legislature has four representatives on the SEPTA board, two from each party. They see every contract, particularly employment contracts for top staff. The governor has a representative on the board. There also is a periodic management audit mandated by Harrisburg and sent to PennDOT, which we've criticized as not independent enough, but is looking for abuses such as you and 'bikentransit' allege.
  by Matthew Mitchell
 
Pacobell73 wrote:Has DVARP totally been absorbed into SEPTA's warped logic? I just saw this posted elsewhere. SEPTA is the new National City Lines.
You guys keep thinking that the choice is between having a rail line and a trail. That might be the case twenty years from now, but the choice right now is between having a trail and having a right of way that sits completely unused, threatened by adjoining propertyowners eyeing reversion of title.

If SEPTA hadn't screwed the pooch on Schuylkill Valley, we'd probably have been in a construction phase by now, and while we'd still regret the decisions of the 80s and the circumstances that resulted in them, other projects would be in the pipeline we wouldn't be using NCL as an analogy. Instead though, SEPTA doesn't have any successes to point to (Wawa will be a start), and the impending projects that are farthest along are being advanced by the counties instead of by SEPTA. SEPTA has a long way to go to regain credibility on expanding the network: not just in these parts, but among professional planners too.

We all have the same goals--there's a difference of opinion on the best way to get there.
  by jfrey40535
 
Matt, I'm sorry but I would have to disagree with you. I don't know DVARP's position on the installation of rail-trails on SEPTA's OOS lines, but supporting them, or saying that it helps preserve the ROW for the future only further cement's SEPTA's policy of allowing such converstions, and may assist in future conversions. The precedent has now been set.

The trail on the Newtown line will likely be the easiest for SEPTA to recover. However, the most concerning conversion is that of the Bethlehem Branch, which in itself has its own set of unique circumstances. In the case of Bethlehem, SEPTA missed an opportunity to take the right of first refusal and purchase the last few miles of the line back to Union Station. But since the ROW was abandonded through the STB, that ROW is now permanetly lost. The result will be marginal utility for any future restoration on the remnants of the Bethlehem line. Undoing the Saucon trail will be extremely difficult, if not all but impossible because of the number of municipalities that have to be dealt with.

A more proactive approach to developing a strategy for preserving OOS ROWs should have been vetted. We know nationally, there has never been a reconversion of a converted passenger line from trail back to rail. This red flag should have been thrown by the SEPTA board before inking the deal on the leases they signed. It would have been nice to see DVARP speak up and call for a more thorough review of the implications of such conversions. In fact, I would have expected that from an association of rail passengers.

There are many other choices for preserving OOS lines that just putting trails in. I get the impression there was no effort to develop these choices. Options should have been developed years ago before deterioration, encroachment and requests for conversion became so pronounced. One idea would have been the solicitation of freight business on any of the OOS lines through a public-private partnership with a short line frieght carrier.

Did SEPTA ever seek a partnership with a short line carrier to solicit and develop freight service on any of the OOS lines? We keep hearing about public-private partnerships, this would have been a great one. Seek and you will find.

A lease with a freight carrier could have allowed a state grant to make infrastructure improvements or assist with maintaining track. The New Hope & Ivyland is one such example of a private, small, shortline, who has obtained state grants in the past to maintain their line, for local service, which supports the local economy. Since SEPTA is incapable of maintaining and operating rail lines they own, a strategy for maintaining and preserving lines, as rail lines should have been developed. Another exmaple could be using OOS track for car storage from private haulers. The economic downturn created a surplus of freight cars that needed a place to stay. The owners pay to keep them stored until needed again. There are pros and cons to these and any options. The million dollar question is, were they ever discussed?

There needs to be new, creative thinking for utilizing these corridors that actively utilize them for the purpose in which they exist. Unfortunately the above ideas are a few years too late for SEPTA's mothballed corridors now. My overall point is that there has been a distinct lack of thought in dealing with SEPTA's OOS routes, and the result of the indifference or inablility to develop plans is evident in what's left of these corridors today.
  by Tritransit Area
 
Did SEPTA ever seek a partnership with a short line carrier to solicit and develop freight service on any of the OOS lines? We keep hearing about public-private partnerships, this would have been a great one. Seek and you will find.
I'm not sure that SEPTA "seeked out" the partnership, but I know that there is freight that runs currently runs along the "Bethlehem Branch" of the proposed "Quakertown Line". In fact, the reactivation of the service is supposed to provide upgrades for both frieght and passenger rail service. I'm not sure what the "private partnership" aspect of this project is, though...

Does CSX or Norfolk Southern pay SEPTA for access along the SEPTA lines?
  by ekt8750
 
Tritransit Area wrote:
Does CSX or Norfolk Southern pay SEPTA for access along the SEPTA lines?
Yep. It's CSX who rents out the line. And SEPTA only owns it up to Telford. East Penn Rail owns it up to Quakertown.
  by Franklin Gowen
 
ekt8750 wrote: Yep. It's CSX who rents out the line. And SEPTA only owns it up to Telford. East Penn Rail owns it up to Quakertown.
IIRC, SEPTA retains full ownership all the way up to just south of Coopersburg. CSX leases from SEPTA up to Telford, as does the East Penn freight shortline from Telford to California Road grade xing north of Quakertown. The last intact part of the former out-of-service area extends from there to just south of Coopersburg, and that too is still SEPTA-owned.
  by walnut
 
SEPTA owns the line up to Hellertown.

SEPTA was offered the option to buy the ROW from Hellertown to Bethlehem from Norfolk Southern but declined it!