Amrak photo policy - Who is misinformed?

Just wanted to add, that it is not possible to purchase tickets at all SEPTA stations, which would preclude the ticketed passenger part. I have a NJT monthly pass, so i'm automatically a ticketed passenger no matter where i go in the NJT system. On the other hand, SEPTA station levittown on the R7, the ticket office closes at 1 pm. I am often there in the evenings without a ticket awaiting a ride, as well, SEPTA has no policy requiring permits, photography is allowed at all stations unless for commercial purposes, where a permit would be required (applies to MTA, NJT, amtk, SEPTA, PATH etc etc etc). i've researched this endlessly tirelessly, i love my camera and capturing the railroad in action, i will never take a photo i legally shouldn't have. No excuse, read up, research, and if all else fails, just leave the area no harm no foul come back another day.

- A

On my auto trip to Salt Lake City completed this past Tuesday, I wanted to stop at Peterson Utah (Overland Route MP 972) for a photo (yes, I now have a Sony pocket cam that even takes videos) of an Eastbound passing the station sign. The photo would have been for a neighbor (dear friends) not only whose family name is Peterson, but her maiden name is also Peterson. If that is not enough, her Father is a retired UP (by way of the C&EI) Locomotive Engineer.

But alas, the railroad property is Posted and for that matter I did not see the station sign, but I do have a photo of my auto (which Col. Perkowski has seen) in front of the No Trespassing sign as that was as far as I was going (now 'back in my day' circa 1968 when I was stationed at Hill AFB and an active railfan, I have photos - all taken without incident - of #104, #10, and Gas Turbines - sorry, no Big Boys - passing that station).

Otherwise, Mission Failure.

with that new camera, are we going to see you hanging over the Roosevelt Road bridge railing taking pictures again? or pacing trains in the hot rod with video-mode switched on?

No way!!!

Roosevelt Road was a hangout during college years; likely I have not more than a dozen photos taken there during the Amtrak-era.

Oh and an FYI for out-of-town railfans; Roosevelt Road, 1200S (CUS is 200S), is fair game; it is public property and the area is becoming more "gentrified'. Cops will "know what you are up to".

Gilbert B Norman wrote: Oh and an FYI for out-of-town railfans; Roosevelt Road, 1200S (CUS is 200S), is fair game; it is public property and the area is becoming more "gentrified'. Cops will "know what you are up to".

It's ok, GBN- you can come clean with us. We're your friends. (That, plus the fact that the statute of limitations has passed.)

mtuandrew wrote:there is also a line of red-tipped markers between the left guardrail and the track. Those are almost certainly right-of-way markers, though I can't quite see them on the other side in that picture. Since the only people with any right to be within the guardrails are TxDOT employees and UP employees, it's a non-issue.

My guess is that those "red tipped markers" are really these signs:




Which are quite common among railroad and road ROWs. In fact here in the Portland area, the WES route has at least two or three different fiber routes underneath it (AT&T and Verizon/MCI); further south in the freight territory there is a Kinder Morgan pipeline underneath the OE, plus the BPA overhead transmission line - all within the railroad right-of-way or immediately adjacent to it.

The orange color, of course, corresponds with the orange paint used by line locator services to mark communications lines. Gas lines are yellow, and power lines are red.

I wasn't there, but I'd really like to talk to this Amtrak MOW foreman and ask him what made him go over to this railfan and challenge him that way. Something doesn't seem right here. For the foreman to even go out of his way like that he must of saw something he didn't like. We're just getting one side of the story here and it's the same story. RAILFAN UNJUSTLY HARASSED, THEY HAVE NO RIGHT, BLAH BLAH BLAH. The photographer got asked to move, SO MOVE AND GET OVER IT. COME BACK ANOTHER DAY AND/OR FIND ANOTHER LOCATION FOR THE TIME BEING. The NEC is big enough. It's about the photography, not causing controversy. At least for me it is. Keep challenging RR employees about their company policies and if they don't have a policy already THEY'LL MAKE ONE. Then what?

RDGFan40 wrote:I wasn't there, but I'd really like to talk to this Amtrak MOW foreman and ask him what made him go over to this railfan and challenge him that way.

Did you view the video? I linked it earlier in the thread.

The photographer was too close to the tracks. When first challenged he said he was taking video for the "Railroad Historical Society" (audio on his video clip). This (and likely the quality of the equipment) led the Amtrak employee and whomever he spoke to before returning to order the photographer off property into believing that it was a professional photo shoot which would require specific written permission.

Amtrak photo policy is pretty clear ... and it appears that it was enforced appropriately by this Amtrak employee. The only question would be if he should have called Amtrak police or another authority to completely enforce the policy by confiscating his camera equipment. It would be better to see this tested in court ... with the photographer charged with trespassing than rehash every incident where an railfan was simply escorted off property.

I don't want to see non-passengers arrested on platforms simply because they don't have a ticket but the extreme actions call for an extreme test. In court.

[/quote]
Did you view the video? I linked it earlier in the thread.

The photographer was too close to the tracks. When first challenged he said he was taking video for the "Railroad Historical Society" (audio on his video clip). This (and likely the quality of the equipment) led the Amtrak employee and whomever he spoke to before returning to order the photographer off property into believing that it was a professional photo shoot which would require specific written permission.

Amtrak photo policy is pretty clear ... and it appears that it was enforced appropriately by this Amtrak employee. The only question would be if he should have called Amtrak police or another authority to completely enforce the policy by confiscating his camera equipment. It would be better to see this tested in court ... with the photographer charged with trespassing than rehash every incident where an railfan was simply escorted off property.

I don't want to see non-passengers arrested on platforms simply because they don't have a ticket but the extreme actions call for an extreme test. In court.[/quote]

Oh I agree with you. I was just trying to be nice and give the photographer the benefit of the doubt. Yes, He was too close to the tracks (and also on a lot of other videos by same photographer), the equipment does lead you to believe it's a professional shoot, along with giving the foreman a business card and identifying one self as a member of a RR society and that's who your filming for. I'm for the foreman. Just wish these militant rail fans who think they know more about RR policy than the RRs own employees WOULD GET IT ALREADY. These people work there. If they ask you to move, MOVE. There are plenty of other places to shoot pics where you wont bother no one.

justalurker66 wrote:Amtrak photo policy is pretty clear ... and it appears that it was enforced appropriately by this Amtrak employee. The only question would be if he should have called Amtrak police or another authority to completely enforce the policy by confiscating his camera equipment. It would be better to see this tested in court ... with the photographer charged with trespassing than rehash every incident where an railfan was simply escorted off property.

I don't want to see non-passengers arrested on platforms simply because they don't have a ticket but the extreme actions call for an extreme test. In court.

Camera equipment is not contraband like crack cocaine. It is not illegal to possess camera equipment and thus no legal basis to confiscate it. Moreover, Amtrak's policy is just that, a policy not a law. One can be asked to leave or be escorted off the property and if one complies, there is no criminal offense. If one does not comply, it becomes a trespass, again no legal basis for confiscation of the camera equipment.

Not too many railfans that I know would be willing to spend the $10s or more of thousands to take something like this up on appeal.

It seems that the person in question has had his share of run in's
- Septa Lansdale - setting his equipment on or too close to the active tracks ( had camera on an active switch stand) He heard about that incident. We won't talk about fouling the switch, setting off a sensor that tied up the mainline. it was OK for him.
- Septa lansdale - setting up on handicap platform, in the yellow zone! Exercised his constitutional rights to have his head taken off, moved with great reluctance after asked.
- Septa Ambler - setting up on the handicap platform, in the yellow zone, moved when asked with a smart comment

- CSX Lansdale - go check his videos****set up camera and related "stuff" way too close to a departing train, you can see the crew requesting him to move, he did not move.

Risky and inconsiderate behavioral pattern, no wonder he has run in's with all sorts of people. The more risky his behavior the worse it gets for other persons.

Ken W2KB wrote: Camera equipment is not contraband like crack cocaine. It is not illegal to possess camera equipment and thus no legal basis to confiscate it. Moreover, Amtrak's policy is just that, a policy not a law. One can be asked to leave or be escorted off the property and if one complies, there is no criminal offense. If one does not comply, it becomes a trespass, again no legal basis for confiscation of the camera equipment.

Ken- I have to say that I think that you have used too broad a brush to paint this legal advice here. I agree that for your run of the mill trespassing charge that an arrest without the seizure of evidence (ie. camera equipment) is the way to go. However, each case must be evaluated on it's own merits. What I'm sensing here is that this guy continually impedes operations and safety at these places where he sets up- not only by location, but by his reported continued refusal to obey lawful commands by agents of the respective railways. If I were a police supervisor on these railroads, I would instruct my patrolman to not only arrest this guy should he act in the manner described, but to also seize his camera equipment as evidence seized in a warrantless search pursuant to a lawful arrest. (Evidence need not be contraband, as you have implied.) My reason for the seizure would be that it's presence would display both motive and intent regarding the trespass in court. Additionally, I would interview persons who had initial contact with him. Should I become aware that orders were given while he was in the process of filming, I would make application for a search warrant to seize and view the film and/or digital image as well. Apparently, from what at least one of our posters have told us, orders might be heard on his videos of workers telling him to "leave" to no avail. This, in my opinion, would be the "slam dunk" to convict this guy by jury and to get, as part of sentencing, a permanent "stay-away" order from the victim railroad. Is this extreme ? Absolutely. Are most trespasses handled this way ? No. If they were, it would tie up the system. Is it a viable method in this case ? Probably yes. (Additionally, there are Federal trespass laws which are more serious than your general run-of-the-mill state statute which are used for all sorts of "photography prohibited" situations (militairy installations, etc.) whereby this kind of evidence would be required and not optional.)

In a sense (although not explicit) the "Amtrak Photo Policy" is a limited license to photograph on Amtrak property. While not explicitly stated (as done in formal contracts) performing photography on Amtrak property denotes acceptance of the rules. The policy clearly states the limits on photography and that equipment may be seized.

If you disagree with Amtrak's Photo Policy don't take photos on their property. (Or at least, only take photos that are permitted within the policy.)

Simple.

"Run ins" with authorities is nothing new for Mr. Almeida; his "paparazzi' activities have even been reported by Time magazine:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 10,00.html

He is registered here as "oaksmodelrr" and at several other sites using that same handle.

Regarding "paparazzi", is there any wonder that railroad employees on the job have about as much use for railfan amateur photographers as do "celebs" for their stalkers? What on earth purpose did that linked video of a UP crew being relieved under Hours of Service at Wheaton (MP 25; Geneva Sub) serve? While I'm hardly suggesting that any crew completing their assignment 'via Renzenberger' will summarily be "held from service pending investigation", that it happened will have someone asking "why"? While I have no knowledge to what extent Trainmasters and other Operating Officers "earn stripes' for how many days of discipline they assess (and how much is upheld on appeal) on that piece of the UP, anytime a crew, or for that matter a Train Dispatcher, has any potential to be "on the carpet', and even if management's reaction is simply a "let's not have that happen anymore', it still is a source of concern - and here is that kid railfan filming it all.

I know that whenever I did a Tax Return over the years, if a client wanted to hang around, they were "invited' to leave my office. Extending same respect, when I recently had Geek Squad over to 'de frag' and otherwise take out a debilitating malware that busted through the Comcast provided McAfee Security system "like it wasn't there', out of courtesy to the young technician, I offered to "get lost', but apparently she didn't care.

DutchRailnut wrote:as for the foremans behavior see Norac rule L.
As for Company property, SEPTA is just a tenant, Its station sits on Amtrak property, yes the right of way on NEC is minimal 50 feet from closest rail.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=odenton,+ ... 4&t=h&z=20

I guess if Amtrak sees the people who built this house, in their house, they ask them to leave their house LOL? Clearly closer than 50 feet!