Amrak photo policy - Who is misinformed?

PennCentral tried the trick, sometimes successfully, of keeping most of the 50 feet outside the rail and letting ConRail have just the actual track area and enough extra to clear a man on the side of a boxcar. Since Amtrak actually bought the NorthEast Corridor from ConRail a short time after 4/1/76, they didn't have much say in the matter. In some cases, bankrupt PennCentral may have already sold the extra land to raise needed cash before the process of forming ConRail started. So, there are legal ways that someone might build a house or take a picture close to Amtrak rails and mock the Amtrak employees while doing it!
Is my railroad allowed to let railfans on our property to take photos of nearby ConRail trains?

Here we go with this again.......I've been to SEVERAL Amtrak stations since the photo policy was enacted and have never been bothered. At Jack London station in Oakland,CA, a Amtrak officer did exit the station to see what i was doing on the platform, but once he saw i was just taking pictures of the trains, he went back inside and that was it.

If this guy is what others here have said he is, then the employees all know him and he will be asked to leave every time they see him. Think of it as if he had an invisible target on him......but if you stay in public places, even platforms, 99% of the time you will be left alone.

3rdrail wrote:

Ken W2KB wrote: Camera equipment is not contraband like crack cocaine. It is not illegal to possess camera equipment and thus no legal basis to confiscate it. Moreover, Amtrak's policy is just that, a policy not a law. One can be asked to leave or be escorted off the property and if one complies, there is no criminal offense. If one does not comply, it becomes a trespass, again no legal basis for confiscation of the camera equipment.

Ken- I have to say that I think that you have used too broad a brush to paint this legal advice here. I agree that for your run of the mill trespassing charge that an arrest without the seizure of evidence (ie. camera equipment) is the way to go. However, each case must be evaluated on it's own merits. What I'm sensing here is that this guy continually impedes operations and safety at these places where he sets up- not only by location, but by his reported continued refusal to obey lawful commands by agents of the respective railways. If I were a police supervisor on these railroads, I would instruct my patrolman to not only arrest this guy should he act in the manner described, but to also seize his camera equipment as evidence seized in a warrantless search pursuant to a lawful arrest. (Evidence need not be contraband, as you have implied.) My reason for the seizure would be that it's presence would display both motive and intent regarding the trespass in court. Additionally, I would interview persons who had initial contact with him. Should I become aware that orders were given while he was in the process of filming, I would make application for a search warrant to seize and view the film and/or digital image as well. Apparently, from what at least one of our posters have told us, orders might be heard on his videos of workers telling him to "leave" to no avail. This, in my opinion, would be the "slam dunk" to convict this guy by jury and to get, as part of sentencing, a permanent "stay-away" order from the victim railroad. Is this extreme ? Absolutely. Are most trespasses handled this way ? No. If they were, it would tie up the system. Is it a viable method in this case ? Probably yes. (Additionally, there are Federal trespass laws which are more serious than your general run-of-the-mill state statute which are used for all sorts of "photography prohibited" situations (militairy installations, etc.) whereby this kind of evidence would be required and not optional.)

Agreed. I was a bit too presumptuous both as to the history of the individual, and in particular, the specific use of the term "confiscate" by the poster. "Confiscate" generally refers to the government taking the property with no intention of returning it, versus the term "seizure" as evidence as you correctly stated. Since the camera equipment is not contraband, the owner would ordinarily get it back at the conclusion of the trial when no longer required for evidentiary purposes.

justalurker66 wrote: If you disagree with Amtrak's Photo Policy don't take photos on their property. (Or at least, only take photos that are permitted within the policy.)

Simple.

Not really, I for example railfan at several stations on the Metro-North railroad, which explicitly allows photography as long as you aren't doing anything stupid [interfering with operations/crew ops, tresspassing, etc]. Some of those station stops are served by Amtrak, but Amtrak doesn't own the stations [IIRC]. I feel like this, potentially, creates a conflict of interests in regards to whether or not they would really have any ability to remove me from the station since I am only allowed to take photos in certain conditions under Amtrak, on the platforms being ticketed IIRC being one of them, but I am not ticketed on Amtrak but on Metro-North that allows photography.

Also any seizure of anything, detention, etc, always has to be within the law, lest it ends up like the MTA police - railfan fiasco at NY Penn.

My two cents on all most of what has been presented in this thread.

1. I live in Philadelphia and JA is very well known in the area by enthusiasts and RR employees/police, so I can confirm Budd's character portrayal: heck of a nice guy but is the "one" individual that would, could, and will ruin it for everyone.

2. Don't wish too hard for things to be like they were pre 9/11, it just won't happen. Once freedoms are taken away, it will take a revolution to get them back. Sadly this wasn't the case all the time. During WWII, rail fanning around yards, tunnels, and bridges would get you a police timeout but after VJ day, everything went back to normal until the age of lawsuits arrived. As a kid, I remember RR crews allowing me and my dad to go up interlocking towers, ride switchers, and walk around yards/engine facilities (All while being escorted). Than all of a sudden overnight it stopped because of ensuing liability in the event one of us cracked a fingernail.

3. Any organization/company who's operational impact could affect the public; water/electric utilities, refineries, and/or transportation providers, has instilled into all their employees to be mindful of any suspicious activity that may compromise public safety; especially ones that could be potential terrorists targets; from the top dog, to the lowest laborer. Just pepper in a little "Patriotism", and you now have vigilant cameras yielding wrenches, hammers, or staplers.

4. The sad reality with this post 9/11 mindset right now is that it ignores the fact that terrorism is more related to a publicity stunt produced by a company to sell a new product than it is to actual warfare. When a group conducts an act of terrorism, they are fundamentally trying to get a message out, not cripple/take out a strategic target. We are trying to fight an ideology, not an army. This fact has lead many war historians to label the actions of the PLO against Israel as actual warfare, not acts of terrorism as they are official declared. Yes, acts of terrorism can be implemented with guerrilla warfare tactics, but the idea is to gain influence and change thoughts; especially among the masses, not just governments. This why in the military it is taught that a terrorists biggest and most dangerous weapon is not a WMD but the media.

About 2 years before I was medically retired from the USMC in 2001, I was in bad physical shape. Since I had a security clearance, I was assigned to the G-2 were I would report everyday, collect all the intelligence reports, read through them, exhume the important stuff, present them to the CO, and then initiate any action if required. By honor and a sworn signed little piece of paper, I cannot divulge to this day a lot of what I read. I can say though that even though 9/11 was a big shock, it was no Pearl Harbor. Anyone who was in the military late 1999 early 2000 stationed in North Texas can confirm that there were periods that would last over month that required 100% ID checks for not just the drivers but everyone in the vehicle, even with DOD placards on the windshields. Some weeks, NOBODY could park their POVs (Personal cars) within 100 feet of any building; even cars with handicap placards. I remember going to the base shopping center and seeing the first ten rows of parking spots roped off. All of this was done because of the surveillance of "Excessive Chatter". So much info is being gathered, we have no problem in this process, but a lot is not being analyzed and/or confirmed properly leading to false alarms masking viable threats. This is how the act or terrorism and can be viable to succeed in pushing agendas. For every plan broken 15 are progressing to the next stage. Probability is on the terrorists side because if we foil one million plans in a row and they succeed with the next one to execution, they win in their minds and that morale fosters more and more.

I bring this up because I disagree with a lot of these policies and deem many as just plain unwarranted and not effective. Yes, being observant to suspicious activity can be effective, this is what saved many lives in Times Square. But I do not see the correlation of a car smoldering and a person taking pictures along a RR ROW. Reconnaissance is just that, reconnaissance. Seriously, what if someone was taking pictures under Penn Station with the intent to study were the best place to hide a bomb would be? It is not an imminent threat, many steps have to be accomplished with heightening degrees of difficulty till execution. I understand the governments mindset is to hinder activity and nip it at the bud, but the reality is, you can't without taking the rights away from everyone. Think about it though, do not shave for a year, down a kufi, dishdasha, and a pair of khussas, buy an amtrak ticket, go to the platform, and start taking pictures. You most likely wont make it 15 minutes.

Sorry to rant. Even though I am more of a modeler and enjoy reading railroad books, not much of a "field" railfan that like taking pictures, I get very upset when I read in these forums that members profess that they enjoy the hobby and taking pictures but do not because of the potential for harassment.


Also, I was looking through some of my railroad picture books (Like Four Ways West and Morning Sun). I would say that the locations that at least half of the pictures taken back in the day would be the result of blatant trespassing. But back when common sense prevailed, entering a yard or even crossing some tracks to get that sunlit loco shot was ok as long as the photographer did not get in the way.

the sarge wrote:2. Don't wish too hard for things to be like they were pre 9/11, it just won't happen. Once freedoms are taken away, it will take a revolution to get them back. Sadly this wasn't the case all the time. During WWII, rail fanning around yards, tunnels, and bridges would get you a police timeout but after VJ day, everything went back to normal until the age of lawsuits arrived. As a kid, I remember RR crews allowing me and my dad to go up interlocking towers, ride switchers, and walk around yards/engine facilities (All while being escorted). Than all of a sudden overnight it stopped because of ensuing liability in the event one of us cracked a fingernail.

Those days are gone...gone...gone... and ain't never comin' back.
When I was a little kid in the early 60's, my mom would take me to train sites because she knew that it was my favorite past time. We went all over the place. Once, we took the El to North Station, and then both of us proceeded to walk past the platform area into the yards, hand in hand...way into the yards and shop complexes. (She was ballsy.) A B&M engineer came out of a maintenance facility, hoisted me up into an EMD E-Unit cab, showed me how to run the engine and let me blow the horn (repeatedly). We thanked him, and after another long walking tour of the yard, got back to the platform area, where a departing engineer threw me an unlit railroad fuse as a souveneir. (Oh, the photos I could have taken if only I had a camera !) What do you think would happen today if she did the same thing ? Suffice to say, it wouldn't happen. I agree with Sarge. It's the "age of the lawsuits" from the "gimmee-gimmee" crowd, which I believe is the main culprit, as well as the fear of terrorism. Neither phenomenon is going away. With more people becoming destitute and with an alarming policy of many to welcome illegal destitutes with open arms, motorists, property owners, transportation companies, cities and towns, entrepeneurs- get your wallets out cause you're going to take a hit. Terrorism isn't going away either. Law enforcement has done exceedingly well to prevent another major disaster since 9/11. Plans have been thwarted and mass murder has been prevented. However, the law of averages dictates that nothing is 100 %. Bottom line: Enjoy your hobby, take your photographs but understand that this is a new world that we are in. It isn't like it was with mom back in the 60's. We've gone from "Leave it to Beaver" to "The Sopranos" in less than 50 years.

Those days are gone...gone...gone... and ain't never comin' back.

If we lay down and accept that, then yes they are never coming back, and we may never get back completely to those times but it's up to all of us to fight back against what we perceive is wrong.

the sarge wrote:But back when common sense prevailed, entering a yard or even crossing some tracks to get that sunlit loco shot was ok as long as the photographer did not get in the way.

Right. The problem is that we switched from limited liability to strict liability because of a single Supreme Court decision back in the late 70's (as I recall). Before that time, if you were wandering around a railroad yard and got injured or killed, well ... now that was a dumb idea on your part. Afterwards, it became a dumb idea on the railroad's part. In many ways that change has not improved American's lives. Take for example, the complete disappearance of chemistry sets. Or the availability of cab rides. Or so much fine print on ladders that an entire bay is covered with text. Or general aircraft, such as Cessnas, not being made anymore (you can still buy a new airplane, but it has to be in kit form so that you bear full responsibility, not the kit-maker. Aircraft makers retain liability for correct functioning of the air craft FOREVER, which is why they stopped making small aircraft).

And if you set up a tripod on a platform, and somebody trips over it, it's the railroad's fault for not prohibiting you. One Supreme Court decision, just one. As Sarge says, freedoms are easily lost and difficult to regain.

Agree with both of you. I'll just add that another phenomenon has reared it's ugly head and that is the opportunist or downright insurance fraud who seeks out opportunities to become "injured" solely for the purpose of making a claim. While this stuff happened in the past, it's reached ridiculous levels now. Couple that with civil courts accepting and legitimizing these claims (McDonalds hot coffee), it encourages these dimwits to aggressively look for further opportunities. Additionally, the action of the courts as well as the propensity for many plaintiffs to "settle out of court", rather than to face expensive legal fees, now offers huge cash settlements whereas before a defendant would be literally "laughed out of the courtroom."Railroads present a treasure trove of real and percieved hazards for their search. This, and the other reasons we have spoken about, are the reasons that railroads are leery about non-employees being on the property. Can you blame them ?

Very true -all. For product liability by a manufacturer, all I have to say is that when I bought a brand new push lawnmower, the first thing I saw when I picked up the assembly instructions was a very big drawing enclosed in a bright red crossed circle depicting a person trying to trim bushes by raising the mower about chest high to cut them down. NOW COME ON! Do I actually need to be shown that this asinine maneuver will result in a 100% chance of causing serious injury to myself and/or others in proximity?

Obviously, this maneuver was executed, litigated, paid, and now its mandatory to print this reminder out...right next to the one showing me not to stick my hand or foot in the exhaust shoot while the mower is running. BRILLIANT!

Yes Sarge, they have to; for all too often, life imitates art.

It seems as if some talent show "America's Got Talent' that NBC airs during the Summer season has a "promo" airing showing two contestants, one a Dentist and the other a patient potraying "getting the drill". Only problem, the drill was some kind of industrial power tool.

Some IQ85 type is going to try that out on another of same "quotient'.

While I do not claim to be any kind of Glenn Beck disciple in this life, some of his "pearls' are quite on mark such as "where did common sense go????".

Although I can never recall "invading' railroad property to the extent Sgt. Joyce noted at an earlier posting, back in my railfanning days of thirty years ago, I was an "invader" on occasion myself. However, since railfanning is now a PASTtime, my earlier posting here regarding Peterson Utah now represents the guideline.

Finally, "life imitates art" and NASCAR???....well "let's not go there".

Im resurrecting an old thread. A friend of mine from NJT was on this train and asked if it was me or someone else I knew as he just caught a glimpse at the last second. I looked it up on youtube and guess what, it was John Almedia, the guy who was the purpose of this topic when it first started. He was yelled at awhile back by track guys at Eddington Station for taking video. He wasnt doing anything wrong at the time of the incident and he wanted to create a stink on here, and all of the yahoo groups bad mouthing amtrak and its ill informed employees. I have said that I have persoanlly witnessed him trespassing when I was at Septa and now at Amtrak.There are times that he isnt trespassing such as the Eddington incident, but there are many more times when he is, and when he isnt doing anything wrong and people say something, then everyone is the bad guy. This video Im posting is proof of what he does. This was taken at the Old Frankford Junction station. its no longer a station stop, and access cant be had unless you go around the barricade at the end of the ramp off of Frankford avenue. There are signs on the property that states that no trespassing is allowed and here this video clearly shows that he is.Normally I would let these things go....Thoughts?I have no problem with photographers at stations, road crossings etc , but when you trespass and dont get caught, and then get yelled at for doing something legit, dont turn around and bash the railroad or its employees. Im a train buff and a railroader, and when I go down the road, Im always trying to give a horn show for guys at the stations. Im a horny person ........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm85qlZ8YDE

nuff said, mr Almeida is a phony, and as his video shows he is well within the Catenary pole lines.

I have no problem with photographers at stations, road crossings etc , but when you trespass and dont get caught, and then get yelled at for doing something legit, dont turn around and bash the railroad or its employees.

No, that is a flat out wrong and dangerous statement. That's like saying its ok for the Police to plant evidence on someone for a crime they didn't commit because they are a "bad person" that they "know" is commuting other crimes. Police have been caught doing that sort of bullcrap on numerous occasions and it is WRONG. If Amtrak or local police have a problem with John or anybody else who is trespassing they should go and actually catch them doing it with evidence that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. It is not at all acceptable for any law enforcement to harass people who are not breaking the law for assumed past conduct. That is the exact same rational police have for performing stops for Driving While Black on the Jersey turnpike or the hundreds of thousands of Stop and Frisks and quality of life citations in poor neighborhoods in New York City. Our legal system is not based on any individual's judgment of karma, it is based on facts and evidence.

Moreover, if you disconnect one's punishment from one's actual behavior then you completely lose any incentive for people to follow the rules. If John here is going to get harassed every time he goes out to a legal photo location then why shouldn't he go and actually "earn" the harassment. If all of the police are patrolling the legal photo locations such as Eddington why shouldn't John set up his tripods at Frankford Jct? If John was trespassing and then stops how do the police realize this and get the word to stop harassing him at Eddington? Are the two behaviors even linked in the first place? The truth is that they aren't linked. John's supposed action in this video has nothing to do with what happened at Eddington. The police don't know who he is and they don't care, they just happened to see an acceptable target that could help improve their stats or make them feel more important. John would have been harassed if he never engaged in questionable photography the same as if he had and THAT is why he and all of us have a right to be outraged.

Besides, do you really want to start antagonizing the photography community over standing 5 feet one way or the other? Nobody is perfect and railfans have a lot less at stake if they get caught mildly exceeding the rules. People with day jobs should not pick a fight with people who have a lot of spare time on their hands, especially if they have cameras. It is one you cannot win.

nuff said, mr Almeida is a phony, and as his video shows he is well within the Catenary pole lines.

I don't believe one can prove from just that video where the cameras were located. Unless you go and produce some forensic analysis on the lens type and zoom level you can't just say what the exact camera position and other circumstances of the shot were.

Mod Note: I realize this is a topic that generates passionate opinions. Thank you Budd for your update, and Mike for your opinion.

It is not the intention of the moderators (at least this one) to sanitize opinion here. Therefore, I will NOT lock the topic. However, I'd like to clarify my position and set some ground rules:

1. Discuss respectfully. Uncivil discourse (again, I don't mean it has to be sanitized, you are certainly free to disagree) is subject to removal without notice by the moderators. I.e. if this turns into a pi$$ing match, the topic will be locked and posts deleted. Don't let your behavior run a respectful debate.

2. Trespassing is not and never will be tolerated by railroad.net, its moderators, site admins, owners, etc. I have not reviewed the video to determine if it shows trespassing, and its posting by a third party does not constitute violation of the policy as it is presented as evidence of another's conduct regarding alleged trespassing in regards to the OP's quoting of someone else's communication.

3. Media posted by those where trespassing by the poster is obvious will be removed.

4. Amtrak's official policy concerning photography as of the date of this post is presented below. Feel free to debate the merits as it pertains to railroad operation specifically (i.e. CBP's random checks on the LSL and its effect on time keeping). Let's not get into the merits of Homeland Security, the TSA, ICE, 9/11, the Patriot Act, etc. Please have that discussion on your political blog (as I like to put it, "constitution.net").

Thank you all in advance for your adherence. I am sure we can all have a respectful debate on the merits.

Disclosure: as this topic took place before my tenure began, I only conducted a cursory review.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentSe ... 1267362248

Exempted from "fair-use quote" policy as this is a public document.

Amtrak Corporate Guidelines on Photography and Video Recording
Section I. Policy
The taking of photographs and/or videos is permitted within public access areas on Amtrak property and as otherwise stated in Section III.

In emergency and/or special circumstances (for example, declared elevation of Homeland Security Advisory System to High or Severe - orange and red) and where actions are deemed suspicious or inconsistent with this policy by observing/reporting persons, photographers and videographers may be approached and questioned to determine if further investigation or action is necessary.

Photography and video recording within restricted areas are prohibited. Individuals found in a restricted area will be subject to investigation and possible arrest and seizure of photography and/or video recording equipment may occur pursuant to the arrest. This policy applies in all circumstances, including where Amtrak may be promoting a photography contest or event.

Section II. Definitions
Commercial and Special Photography. Photography that requires explicit authorization from Amtrak and includes engagements for commercial gain or profit such as, movie films, commercial television productions, and photography for commercial advertisements.

Photography. Photography shall mean the taking of moving and/or still images.

Public Area. An area open to general public access and occupancy (station areas and platforms for ticketed passengers only) that is not otherwise posted or restricted by posted signs or locking devices. Signage, building design and physical barriers, i.e. fencing, bollards, etc., may also distinguish a public area from a restricted area.

Restricted Area. A restricted area is any area not open to or occupied by the public, or is open to or occupied by the public on a limited basis. Signage, building design and physical barriers, i.e. fencing, bollards, etc., may also distinguish a restricted area from a public area.

Restricted areas include but are not limited to the following:

Platforms (ticketed passengers are exempt)
Crew and Employee Work Areas
Maintenance Facilities
Unoccupied Trains and Engines
Office Areas
Employee Elevators
Baggage/Delivery Areas
Commissaries
Right of Way and Track Areas
In service train cars
Section III. Exceptions
Commercial and Special Photography. Prior arrangements must be made with Amtrak's Real Estate Department at (215) 349-1238 for approval.
News Photography. Members of the news media are entitled to the same access for photography purposes as the general public. News media may request additional access by contacting the Amtrak Media Relations Office, 202-906-3860. Amtrak recommends that members of the news media present valid press credentials when they film (print and video photography) in the public areas at Amtrak's stations and strongly encourages the news media to contact Amtrak's Media Relations Office in advance to facilitate and ensure appropriate access, particularly at major Amtrak stations. As a courtesy, Media Relations Representatives will frequently issue a letter or accompany news media in the Northeast, Chicago and California regions. It is understood that during breaking news events advance contact with Amtrak's Media Relations Office may not be possible.
Ticketed Passengers on platforms may photograph or video record during the time they are preparing to board or immediately after alighting from a train. Equipment is limited to hand-held devices. Such photography, including equipment set-up will be done in a reasonable, safe and timely manner.
Ticketed passengers on board trains may take photos or video record on a train when it does not interfere with passengers or crew and in accordance with any directions given by Amtrak onboard train personnel.
Other photography or video recording not covered by this policy requires advance approval from the area Amtrak Station Manager.
Section IV. Law Enforcement
Amtrak Police and Security personnel may approach photographers and videographers upon a complaint from a member of the public or Amtrak personnel that the activity is suspicious in nature, or based upon their own observation that the activity is suspicious in nature or inconsistent with this policy.

Amtrak Police and Security Personnel will advise the individual that an inquiry is being conducted for security purposes. Amtrak Police and Security personnel will follow established departmental regulations in this area.
Nothing in this policy limits or expands the authority of Amtrak police officers to initiate and pursue investigations, perform a pat down or frisk based upon reasonable suspicion, and/or conduct searches based upon probable cause or any recognized exception to the probable cause requirement in accordance with all legal authority. But the taking of photographs and/or video may not, in and of itself, rise to the level of reasonable suspicion or probable cause.