Transfers and Late Trains question.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:From postings made in the past, as I recall, Toledo station is "uh, not exactly' in the best part of town.

Though the Toledo station is "not exactly" in the nicest part of town, the area is pretty deserted when the Lake Shore is coming through. So, as far as walking around goes, you're unlikely to be accosted by any unsavory characters. (Of course, I'm 6'3", 215#, so your perception of safety may vary. In fact, I might look unsavory in a dark enough light.)

For greasy spoon types, I suggest the High Level Cafe, .3 mi N.:

Google maps

There is also a bar, perhaps called the Oliver House, which is north of the station and convenient when waiting around, say, after you've stepped off the Thruway from Ann Arbor:

Google maps

For my own purposes, I would term the area around the Toledo station as "depressed, run-down, but not Detroit," and, therefore, "charming" rather than "dangerous."

If you do get stuck in Toledo, there are plenty of low-cost motel options near the highway in the $20 - $25 range nightly (at least that's how much they were going for last January when I got stuck there overnight). I don't know that Amtrak would spring for it, but you might want to reserve a twenty for that circumstance just in case.

So, if you find yourself saying "Holy Toledo! I'm stuck in Ohio", consider staying at the local $24.99 Howard Johnson's, so that you have easy access to the onsite fine dining facilities -- and, if you stay across the street, it's $5 cheaper and just about the same.

Lets face it, an Amtrak stop for 48 and 49 at Elkhart is a much bigger deal
than stops between New York and Albany where there are good Amtrak
alternatives.
As for Westchester County, a stop at Tarrytown would be much better
than the present stop at Croton-Harmon. A thruway bus from/to White
Plains is also something that ought to happen but probably won't.
Rather than a thruway bus from Stamford, I think Port Chester or Rye to
White Plains to Tarrytown would work the best. I don't think New York
State gives a dam about this though.
Tarrytown is a good location for an Amtrak stop as there is a decent
waiting room facility there, there is only one northbound track but it can be reached from the south by crossovers from track one and back to
track one north of the station and on the southbund side, there is a good
long island platform. Croton-Harmon is a busy and congested area and
an Amtrak train would always do better there by not stopping.
As for Yonkers, there is not much local parking nor is there bus connections available except for local service.
They should do away with Yonkers and Croton-Harmon and substitute
Tarrytown for both of them. Most of the rush hour trains should also
skip Poughkeepsie and make Rhinecliff and Hudson enroute to Albany.
In my opinion, non rush hour trains should continue to stop at Poughkeepsie.
Train 49, the Lake Shore should make no stops between New York and
Albany.
I think the above would be the best way for Amtrak to serve everybody in
the Hudson Valley.
Noel Weaver

Well, just to update... made Toledo ok. Got in about 35 minutes late. Had no trouble finding a cab to get me to Hertz at the airport.

Much nicer station than I expected.

To bad it didn't have the traffic levels the number of tracks could justify.

I've booked thru to South Bend, so I don't have to change in Toledo, however an odd question did come to mind, does anyone have a listing of what is avalible in the Cafe or Dining Car with or without prices?

Poughkeepsie is the largest city of the east bank of the Hudson between Yonkers and Troy. Hence it warrants the stop. Rhinecliff might be questionable since it is only 15 miles to the north. OTOH it is close to the bridge to Kingston, a large city on the west bank.

LI Loco wrote:Poughkeepsie is the largest city of the east bank of the Hudson between Yonkers and Troy. Hence it warrants the stop. Rhinecliff might be questionable since it is only 15 miles to the north. OTOH it is close to the bridge to Kingston, a large city on the west bank.

Well, Rome is bigger by about 5000 people and yet the Lake Shore does
not stop there either. The more stops, the more lost time especially with
a train of this nature.
The transfer at Albany is not difficult and I still say no stops between
Albany and New York period......
Noel Weaver

To assess a stop market potential one needs to take into account more than just the population of the city. Surrounding areas - say within a 25- mile radius - are part of the market, as well. Poughkeepsie's market includes such communities as Wappinger's Falls, Hyde Park and even Newburgh across the river. While Rome is a sizable upstate city, it is a mere 13 miles from Utica.

As to the transfer in Albany, it may not be difficult for healthy people such as Mr. Weaver and myself, but elderly, disabled and mothers traveling with small children are likely to think otherwise. If one arrives on a local train that gets in, say, one hour before the Lake Shore Limited, they will not be permitted to wait on the platform (not that they'd want to in January or February). Instead they will be sheparded upstairs to the concourse or waiting room and then have to go back to platform level. A nuisance at best.

In reality, Wappinger's Falls, Newburgh and Hyde Park are not likely big
traffic generators for someone going to Chicago. Not sufficient reason to
stop at Poughkeepsie.
Rome on the other hand is not far from the Turning Stone Casino and also
not far from the Adirondacks.
There is ample New York State Amtrak service to take care of both Rome
and Poughkeepsie and good comfortable facilities for passengers in both
Albany and Syracuse.
Stops on the Lake Shore should be limited in nature and smaller stops
like Poughkeepsie, Amsterdam and Rome can be adequately served by
other trains.
NO LOCAL STOPS BETWEEN ALBANY AND NEW YORK.....
Noel Weaver

The Lake Shore is more than a Chicago train. It is also the last departure of the day for Empire Corridor points west of Schenectady, i.e. Utica, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, so it fills an important intrastate travel role, as well.

Turning Stone may be a traffic generator, but folks in Chicagoland have merely to go Joliet or Northwest Indiana if they want to blow the savings on games of chance. As for the Adirondacks, Utica is a better gateway. It even has a train to the Adirondacks.

I have no doubt that eliminating the stops between ALB and NYP would improve the Lake Shore's operating efficiency, but that has to be weighed against the revenue potential additional stops in the Hudson Valley would generate. Mind you, I would not want to see the Lake Shore used for LOCAL travel between Hudson Valley stops and NYP. All stops should be receive only for passengers traveling WEST of ALB.

In reality, Wappinger's Falls, Newburgh and Hyde Park are not likely big traffic generators for someone going to Chicago

But Turning Stone and the Adirondacks are? Please, lets be serious.

Casinos have never proven to be traffic generators for Amtrak. Nor have the Adirondacks -- as a car is needed to partake in the sites and activities of this wonderful region. And Rome is an utterly depressed city, I don't care how many people might still be living there, totally unlike the vibrant Mid-Hudson Valley.

Poughkeepsie, on the other hand, lies smack in the middle of the Mid-Hudson Valley, a heavily populated area with people who are far more inclined to consider rail as an option for long distance travel due to their daily relationship with the MetroNorth.

In addition, the Poughkeepsie area is home to several important colleges, including the Culinary Institute of America, Vassar, Marist, and SUNY New Paltz -- not to mention West Point, which is just south of Newburgh.

As LI Loco points out, Rhinecliff is conveniently located at the foot of the Kingston-Rhinecliff Bridge. Bard College is nearby. And, again, the residents of Dutchess county have a close affinity with Amtrak.

As for Hudson, it lies at the foot of the Rip Van Winkle Bridge. Columbia County also has a close affinity with Amtrak.

All I can say is that each of these stations served as important stops for the Lake Shore Limited for years and years. The only reason that Amtrak has ever offered for discontinuing these stops was to improve timekeeping, and ironically, since these stops were discontinued, the Lake Shore Limited's time keeping has never been worse since.

So what gives? The quality of Amtrak service to the Mid-Hudson Valley. That's it. Plain and simple. I urge anyone to compare today's Lake Shore Limited with the Lake Shore Limited of the late 1980s and early 1990s. Today's train is truly pathetic.

There is no doubt in my mind that Hudson Valley passengers has simply given up on the Lake Shore Limited. I urge anyone to go to Albany sometime and check out how many connecting passengers they can find. Rhinecliff, Hudson, and Poughkeepsie, collectively, used to be good for at least 20-40 long-haul passengers a day in each direction. Not anymore.

I will give you this, the Lake Shore at one time was the last departure of
the day out of New York for anywhere between Rhinecliff and points west.
I used to go to New York from time to time out of Albany and would find
myself riding back to Albany as there was nothing later and it left GCT
(at that time) around 6:30PM.
There is now ample service between New York and Albany and the Lake
Shore no longer needs to drag around the extra car or two to provide
service between New York and Albany.
I am well aware of the rail traffic in the Hudson Valley but I am NOT
convinced that there would be that big of a market for passengers to
board a train at Poughkeepsie only for points west of Buffalo. If the train
were to have a conditional stop at Poughkeepsie added for pick up of
passengers destined ONLY to points west of Buffalo, I would bet that they
would rarely get five people per day and many days they would get
nobody.
Amtrak's long haul trains in the corridor between New York and Washington also make a very limited number of stops. Again, there is
ample local service available there too.
Incidentally, if you take the time to examine an Amtrak system timetable
for the Lake Shore Limited schedule, take a look at note 70 which shows
at all of the stations from Buffalo to Schenectady inclusive for the eastbound train no. 48. It states that the train stops to discharge
passengers and to receive passengers for stations in Massachusetts.
Reservations will be accepted for stations in New York on a space available basis. However, passengers are advised to use Train 284 or 282.
Albany is a good place to transfer, there are high level platforms and both
escalator and elevator service is available to get you into the station too.
You can't stop an express or limited train at every station or it is no longer
an express or limited.
Poughkeepsie station is owned and operated by Metro-North so their trains
come first there and the Lake Shore could also tangle with them too. In
addition, the platform at Poughkeepsie only holds six cars so additional
time could be lost trying to spot the trains there too. You can't come
flying into a station to make a stop if the conductor has to spot you on
the platform with a radio.
Noel Weaver

I figured I'd put one final post in this thread.

Thanks to everyone for your help with figureing out this trip, it was a sucess with both trains arriving ahead of schedule.