Officials want train service into Cape May

Irish Chieftain wrote: The NJT right of way is not active like the Morristown Line, but there may indeed be some jurisdiction and liability issues. The railroad is not municipal property; and local police still need a warrant to go on property that is not public.

At a minimum, the local police can enter the property (1) if they receive a citizen complaint that a crime may be underway, (2) the police on patrol observe a potential crime underway, or (3) the police have the permission of the landowner/lessee/licensee or railroad car owner.

For unfenced property, generally there can be no DP/criminal trespass by the police or anyone else unless notice in the form of signs posted every (50??) feet along the property border or actual notice by the owner/lessee/licensee is given and the person receiving the notice does not promptly leave.

In any event, I would expect that a warrant would not be issued unless the police wished to search the property for evidence of a crime by a lawful occupant. The vandals have no right to be on the property so have no expectation of privacy making a warrant necessary for valid police intervention.

Jtgshu wrote:Irish, depending on the locatoin and the siding, it might NOT be railroad property, but private property, and the local PD have full jurisdiction. Again, it depends on the individual location and circumstance and various land deed agreements between the RR and the property owner. I do NOT know anything in specific about the location where the RDC cars are kept.

Also, while NJT might be the owner of the line, NJTPD and NJT might have an agreement with the local towns and their PD's to patrol and watch the line and facilities, and take care of problems without having to have NJTPD get invovled.

Local police officers (and NJT officers as well) have full and complete jusrisdiction everywhere in the entire State with the exception of federal enclaves such as Fort Dix, Maguire AFB, Lakehurst NAS, etc. There is no distinction in local police criminal jurisdiction for railroad versus other property. As you state, there might be a request by NJT or CMSL for police to check the property as part of regular patrols. Not unusual for police to do that on request of businesses, homeowners on vacation, etc.

Someone is blowing smoke up someones a-- . That is what I gather!!!

What we need in Atlantic,Cape May and Cumberland county is additional funding .The Atlantic City casinos ,boardwalks in Ocean City and Wildwood pull in HUGH amounts of tax dollars for the entire state! Camden county has the River line and Lindenwold High speed Line and North Jersey gets most of the new rail cars and track,plus a 7 BILLION dollar tunnel into New York. We get hardly any funding down here. A tourist railroad could be a regular service if we had some more funding. Also to answer MR. prsl,I think Tony is doing a wonderful job and I support him fully,and yes Id love to see the trains in Richland,give us funding for another siding ,we will take them!Maybe you should help out instead of always going against the CMSL ,you seem anti railroad!Are you x mayor Volls buddy???

Why waste all that money on a three month operation. If the line has any money making chance do you think NJT would be letting a tourist train use it? After 10 years maybe it's time for the CMSL to dump some money to get the line running. You can only keep dumping state money on a project for so long before the state realizes it has no chance to suceed.

Since the state owns the railroad, I don't think it's so outrageous for the state to pay to make the ROW usable.

Most of the state money gets dumped up in camden county and north jersey,every one down here in south jersey would love to use the train,except we cant get funding for about 10 lousy miles of track. Now they are holding public meetings this month to extend the high speed line in to Glassboro either by rt 55,42 or the old track through Pitman,Im all for it,even if its a multi BILLION dollar project but CMSL cant get 10 miles of track fixed by the state.The River Line gets about 6 dollars for each passenger from the state,it cost 1.35 to go from Camden to Trenton! But we get pennys,so no wonder its just a tourist line,but it will make it to Cape May ,its just a matter of time.The train has not run since about 1982,many people have forgotton a train even ran to Ocean City ,Wildwood and Cape May ,build it and they will come,the Jersey shore is year round now not just 3 months in the summer like in the 1960s.

How many people are there in North Jersey and Central Jersey compared to the bottom of the state. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out why the funding goes where it does. Does anyone know off hand how many millions have already been spent on CMSL? If anybody from NJARP has the numbers I would like to see how much was spent and what the ridership on the line has been since CMSL started up. Just seems the ridership has never matched what was promised.

Every now and again this topic starts backup again and different people say the same thing here over and over again. Do I believe that the CMSL could present benefits if the 10 miles of track that need rehab were to be rehabbed? Yes, I do, and there was a time that I would hav been very gung ho about seeing the money channeled down into that line for restoration of service. But I have come to realize a couple of things:
The state of NJ does not take the CMSL seriously
Cape May County and the municipalities therein have not taken the CMSL seriously, ie the vandalism in Rio Grande and similar incidents
And most importantly, if the state of NJ or NJT saw future in the line, the money would already have been there.
At this point I feel that unless there is serious action at a government level, the CMSL is going to remain a tourist line. Let me make an assumption now that fundingcoes down to rehab the track, and the CMSL reaches from Tuckahoe to Cape May, that service would reflect a continuing trend of CMSL tourist service and the possibility of frieght service in whatever context they might have at that time. They are a long way away from offering serious passenger service for what seems like a couple of reasons:
Tuckahoe is a long way away from an active NJT Rail station
If they were to connect to, let's say Lindenwold Station, would they not need trackage rights over the CSAO from Tuckahoe to Winslow on the Beesley's Point Secondary track, then through Winslow Junction on the SRNJ connecting track, and the NJT Atlantic City line to Lindenwold.
I have been under the impression that the SRNJ management has not liked the idea of the CMSL running to Winslow Junction. If I am wrong about any of this, please correct me. It just seems like this conversation of CMSL expansion happens over and over again and the CMSL makes all kinds of promises they have not lived up to every year. At this point, just don't have that faith in the line that I once did because they have had no governmental support and dont seem to be getting anywhere. Would I like to see them expand? Yes, and don't get me wrong, it would pease me if they were taken seriously and anythng were to get accomplished, but, at this point, I just don't see that happening anytime in the foreseeable future.

We don't intend to be flip here, but if the question truly is how much money has been spent on Cape May Seashore Lines, NJ-ARP's answer is: To the best of our knowledge, zero.

IF the question is intended to highlight spending on the Cape May Branch, which (as chuchubob has already noted) NJ Transit does own, NJ-ARP's honest answer is: Not enough to be a cost-effective banking program for future use, as our members north and south have requested and suggested for more than a decade.

We plead guilty to the charge of reiterating our positions and stances over and again, as perhaps others do as well. We call that consistency, and remain convinced that the Cape May Branch has a functional future that, alas, all too many railfans cannot or will not see.

It was not all that long ago that conventional wisdom decreed rail passenger service (even) in the more populated north and central portions of New Jersey was a doomed cause. The record says otherwise.

NJT owns the Southern Secondary too (the active part that Conrail uses) - should NJT pay for the maintence of it too (i don't BELIEVE they do, and that CR is responsible for the maintence and upkeep of it - if im wrong, please correct me), same for the Freehold Secondary. Should NJT spend the cash to rebuild the 5 miles of OOS track inbetween Freehold and Farmingdale on the Freehold Sec? There is more than likely an agreement that NJT simply owns the line, while the leaser is responsible for everything else. I don't hear the Coast Line dispatcher giving the Form D's to CR trains running down to Lakehurst...

NJT also owns the Freehold branch from Matawan to Freehold - should NJT be responsible for the removal of the rail/clearing of the ROW for the Henry Hudson Trail? Of course not, the line is LEASED to the Monmouth County Park system, and they are required to maintain/secure/improve the property.

Why should NJT work on the CMSL and not the Southern or Freehold Secondaries? Because Conrail is a "big" railroad with cash while the CMSL isn't? Thats not fair either. Its leased to them just like everyone else.

The cash kettle is only so big. Has the CMSL applied for cash grants, help, etc from the towns, counties, state DOT, or feds for improvements? it seems to me that the CMSL should be barking up the NJDOT's tree for cash for improvements, not NJTs.

The fact that the state/NJT owns all these ROWs is probably the best thing we could have for future service reactivation on these lines. At least they are being used in the meantime, by lease agreements.

As a side question, what kind of agreement does the CMSL have with the URHS for the use of the historical equipment? Could the URHS decide to recall the equipment up north if they so desired?

I hate to sound so anti-CMSL, but they have to play by the same rules as everyone else, its only fair. And if NJT gives them special treatment, what about Conrail, and the various other railroads who interact/lease with NJT?

yes I agree with alot of what you all say, But the population of south jersey is growing rapidly(I like it country) due to people leaving crime ridden Philadelphia and very high cost of living in north jersey,I see more giants and yankee hats every year. Also the casinos are on a massive building program that brings in more workers and visitors and TAX DOLLARS with each billion dollar casino built. In the summer you have the parkway backed up for miles,and people are living at the shore year round now,yet funding is scare from nj dot for the south shore area,yes it is leased,but for the publics good.I agree it must be hooked up to the Philadelphia Atlantic City line at Winslow junction to go up to phila and Cherry Hill area,do that and the train will take off especially if they go back in to Ocean City and Wildwood.I speak to a lot of people and they love the idea.The problem is many of the people who contol the budget are from north jersey and they come down on the parkway,not rt 42,black and white horse pikes and rt47 and rt 40.I know s jersey well ,these roads are home,but unknown to many in north jersey just as when you speak of the towns, rails and places in north jersey could be on Mars for all we know of them down here.But we all love railroads and any new track,trains or stations is a big win for all of us rail fans in New Jersey.Thank You

If the URHS takes back their equipment CMSL won't have enough reliable running equipment to run their trains. I don't think they have restored any of their own equipment since they started. Just look at the trashed equipment at Rio Grande and Wildwood Junction.

Jtgshu, and anyone else, certainly has a right to "rank" needs and wants among New Jersey projects, and that's all well and good. But for NJ-ARP, we go where opportunity lies, which may or may not fit others' self-composed "laundry lists" and which may -- and in this case certainly does not -- involve low-risk (or "low-beta") projects.

And while Jtgshu asks relevant questions concerning the propriety, timing, and targeting of funding for the Cape May Branch, he appears to be (1) unaware that in fact, NJ-ARP and others have approached NJDOT, and other entities, and not (just) NJT -- sometimes with good results, and (2) buying at least into the allusion that a specific company, Cape May Seashore Lines, is beseeching NJ Transit for supportive funding for operations, which to NJ-ARP's knowledge (and our repeated insistence, here and elsewehere) simply is not the case, wishful lashing out here on this forum to the contrary. It just isn't, folks, as best as we can see. If someone has tangible evidence to the contrary, we're open-minded enough to wish it posted here, or wherever rational public discourse reigns.

Put another way, we have willing entities -- too few and not quite powerful enough, yet, to be sure -- pushing to ensure passenger rail access (and maybe freight rail, too, gee whiz!) for future needs. Some of these entities seem all too willing to deal with, indeed even welcome, "outsiders" who might actually want access to sylvan southern New Jersey. Some even consider the desirable option of locals traveling to the evil locales of Philadelphia, northern New Jersey or, heaven help us all, New York. NJ-ARP believes in such options, and will work for such opportunity, as we have since 1980 -- again, with admittedly mixed (but not all negative!) results.

Indeed, NJ-ARP could make a case that, Jtgshu's suggestions of "level playing field" to the contrary, NJ Transit has been sporadic and inconsistent, and not always evenhanded, to small tenants. (To spin this most positively, sometimes NJT is a helpful entity--it'd be harder, but less confusing, to NJ-ARP if NJT were consistently the "bad guy.")

Put most diplomatically, our starting points of presumption are far, far different. For one thing, please identify what "special treatment" has been requested, because if indeed NJT is right to resist any and all requests for such from a short-line railroad, it appears to NJ-ARP, at least, that NJT has done just that. What "requests" have been made that are so unreasonable--or not in keeping with the lease agreement?

Final note, somewhat off-topic. Per Jtgshu's question, in fact NJ-ARP does believe NJ Transit should commit to the OOS portion of the MOM line in the Farmingdale area, as part of the drive to bring passenger rail service to central New Jersey. As MOM's parents, we of course would hold that highly subjective view.

I apologize, I should have been clearer in my reference to the Freehold/Farmingdale segment. I mean for NJT to fix the OOS for Conrail to operate over it for freight service, today, "pre-MOM", NOT for NJT's MOM service, as obviously that would be the preferred route (IMO at least, with Red Bank a very close second, and both should be built, but anyway.........)

Of course, I do not have any inside info to how NJT has helped the past, how inconsistant they may or may not be (I mean, I know first hand how the company operates - I understand how it can be confusing!!!), but what I mean by "special treatment" is the following -

Lets say NJT has exact same leasing terms for Conrail on the Southern Secondary as they do for the CMSL. After a REALLY bad rainstorm, there is a washout north of Lakewood on the SS. If under the terms of the lease, CR is responsible for maintaining the ROW for service, and NJT is under no obligation to fix the washout, even though they are the owners. Now, lets say the same rainstorm, also causes a washout on the active portion of the CMSL. NJT has the same lease terms with the CMSL as they do CR. CR had to fix it themselves. Why should NJT help out the CMSL fix the washout? Its not fair, if both railroads have the same lease agreements (again, I don't know if they do or not, im speaking hypothecially)

Im not saying its wrong or wasteful to be supportive of a restoration of passenger service on the CMSL or any other long dormant (for passenger service) line. That is im sure part of the mission for the NJ-ARP, and a good one at that, and you guys do a great job.

However, lets think of it this way.

1) Why would NJT spend money on a line that if they decided to re-instate passenger service on, would need to be rebuilt anyway? Thats rebuilding that portion of the line TWICE. Like for example, Freehold to Farmingdale - Why would NJT give CR cash to rebuild the line for freight service, but then hopefully in a few years, the whole line rebuilt AGAIN for passenger service for MOM. Its a waste of precious few dollars.

2) Also, and more importantly, but less popular here, is why would NJT give cash to an operation to restore track, etc so they can run passenger trains on property that NJT owns? An isolated tourist operation is fine, however, reaching up to connect to the ACL and providing service on a regular schedule with connections wiht ACL trains, is a Commuter/Passenger train. And THAT is NJTRO's work. NJTRO's Engineers, Trainmen, Dispatchers, MOW, etc should be running that line then. NOT the CMSL, ESPECIALLY running over property that NJT owns. Freight service okay fine - maybe they could co-exist (NJT and CMSL), but the CMSLs bread and butter seems to be the tourist runs, and its no secret that they would like to see the travel route expanded.

So start the flames, cause I know they are coming, about how im being selfish, etc etc...........

Yea, its been about 6 months or so since this deceased horse has been pounded into oblivion.........