Abandoning the former BR&P through Orchard Park

I'm not sure who the new guy is, but he certainly doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.

First of all, do not jump all over Tippy for being an optimist. I have sepnt many years of my life in the same boat that he is in, using your heart to grasp onto any minute chance of hope.

That's thrilling, but Tippy likes to repeat the same thing over and over. Let's move on.

Now, there are causes for optimisim. New York state is taking a stand against the abandonment of any rail lines. They want every avaliable line left in to stimulate business growth in the area.

Addressed above, intelligently, by JoeCollege. The same is true for Western New York.

If the B&P refuses to upgrade the line, There is an investor group that has been woking under the radar for a few years now, albeit the process is taking a while, and they have been in contact with the state.

I don't believe it. Cite your sources.

Also, the B&P has not pursued their petition to abandone because if something should happen to the trackage rights then they will need their line back, I have heard from a few of their employees on how abandoning the line from Machias to Silver Springs has already cause them more than a few headaches.

Absurd. Have you read any of the previous posts? Do you have an idea how much money would need ot be spent to get it back to standards? Are you aware of the highway issues that complicate this further? Or that Erie County has essentially thrown in the towel with the hopes for Bills game traffic?

With all of this, I can see the line coming back to life someday, whether it being the WNYP, or B7P or a new shortline such as the ones that operate the Erie south of Buffalo (Buffalo Souther, NY&LE).

Poor spelling aside, the WNYP doesn't need it. The B&P clearly doesn't want it. The NYLE is hardly alive (I don't know how they haven't folded yet) and the best chance is the Buffalo Southern. I don't see them going for it. Perhaps I'm wrong. Their operator is on this board someplace; ask him.

Have faith, the state wants the line is just as bad as the rest of us do.

No they don't. Now, go back to sleep, and stay away from the cough syrup next time.

David Becker

Actually what I said was that a new short line could take it over, not that the Buffalo Southern or NY&LE would run it. And my sources for all of the information are B&P employees.

jaash5 wrote:NYSW is "seeking" just as the B&P is with their line.......doesn't mean the state will allow it

jaash5, the state has absolutely no say in the matter. Railroads are regulated by the Federal Government.

Trust me. I am involved in the issue on a local level. I am a village trustee in a municipality along the NYSW line. Municipal, County and State officials spend a lot of time with their lips firmly planted on the Gluteus Maximus of Rich, Fenno et. al. We've given tax exemption after tax exemption, paid out of pocket for street crossing upgrades, listened ad nauseum (well, until recently) to the complaints of citizens who purchased property adjacent to the tracks only to learn to their horror that big loud trains use them.

The NYSW and the B&P applied to the FEDERAL Railroad Administration for abandonment, not the NYS Railroad Administration.

Too many bridges, especially that big 'un in the middle.... too many grade crossings with signals at $100,000 a piece...track is already torn out at four or five different places....and there's the small matter of that little wet spot of quicksand and whole railcars at about MP34....ditches are full and don't drain...washouts...rotted ties...excessive rail flow and hammered joints....brush, refrigerators, rotted abutments...you name it.....all not having been attended to for at least eight years now, and only getting worse with every rainstorm.

Now, what about Mr & Mrs Joe Lawyer in Orchard Park with all the new houses that were sold in the last ten years...."that railroad'll never run again, sign here." What do you think will happen when the reports of trains start to appear? The only thing that'll be blowing in West Falls is the wind through the eaves of the Dog Bar.

NYLE? What? Buffalo Southern? Who? Are you kidding? Without freight, what would they do with it? Might as well put the A&A over there...you'd get about the same result. With upgrades, in truth, it'd be a much nicer ride for passengers and they might actually have bathrooms for the riders.

There are stations left, and plenty of things to see. It's a shame B&P let it deteriorate, because it is probably the most scenic ride in WNY, and is as good as any in the state, but get this....it's THEIRS.

To my knowledge, all three of these proported short-line saviors - combined - aren't moving 1000 cars a year, and the A&A - laugh - is probably moving the MOST of the three of them. In Poker, three of a kind is nice, but you'd like them to be higher than a four.

You're fighting a battle that has gone on for some people I know for 15 years, and they've gotten nowhere in restoring that line. Remember Milwaukee 261? She ran that line with politicians and businessmen swinging off that thing like monkeys....where are they now? Down at Bass Pro buying fishing lures.......no, wait....

...Uncle Sugar decides what tracks are torn up. Your Uncle said "No" last time because of the limited freight protests and all the public money put into bridges and crossings....well, that isn't around to stop B&P anymore. Next up for that line is a bike path with a casino at each end.

A wise man with lots of railroad experience once told me, "Junior, if they don't appreciate what they have, then they don't deserve to have it" . He was right then, and he's right now.....tear it up and knock all the rest of the stations down. That kind of thinking seems to be where the money is, as it is not in preservation.

If not, show me the money.

and, just for Dave Becker, this posting will be repeated in it's entirety at my earliest convenience....over, and over....

The statement in an earlier posting regarding abandonments is correct in its assertion that states have no authority in this area. Under the Interstate Commerce Termination Act the sole authority for abandonments is vested with the three Commissioners of the Surface Transportation Board (STB). The STB Commissioners also have jurisdiction over railroad rate and service issues and over changes in control through sale or lease of railroad lines. Federal authority preempts local or state regulation

The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) is a separate agency within the Department of Transportation with jurisdiction over railroad operating practices, track standards and safety. State DOT's do retain some authority in the area of grade crossing protection since that involves the highway system.

In short, the STB's focus is on economic matters. The FRA's focus is on operating practices.

That's why I love you, John. Nicely said. Let me know how the lures are at that Bass Pro shop. I was thinking about travelling up to Buffalo to go to the Sabres parade for winning the Stanley Cup...

Dave Becker

Hey! Why not have a FOURTH shortline railroad within 20 miles that doesn't have any new industry and can't effectively market itself...

Hey! Why not have ANOTHER shortline railroad that owns 8 or 10 60-year-old old switchers and hauls 9 cars a week...with 8 employees and 13 flaccid members of the Board of Directors...

Hey! Let's get $35 Million dollars and dump it into ANOTHER North-South connection to Buffalo....

Hey! Why not buy four or five MORE steam engines....


...oof.

Today I was pacing a short B&P train along Rt. 219 between Ellicottville and Great Valley. Southbound, with one engine and five gons. Speed was 40-45 mph. It was really great to see a train on that line again - I know there are, but I haven't personally seen one in over twenty years.

I wanted to take its picture at the Killbuck Rd. crossing but the train must have stopped somewhere on the double track section, and I couldn't wait for it.

WNYP431 wrote:Hey! Why not have a FOURTH shortline railroad within 20 miles that doesn't have any new industry and can't effectively market itself...

Boy isn't that the truth...

I've been in marketing for over 20 years and had the opportunity to work with an two-time Inc. 500 company and I'm flabbergastted at how incredibly awful the local shortlines are at marketing themselves. Some are certainly better than others but it's being more like the "tallest dwarf in the circus" than something that is truly meaningful.

MichaelWinicki wrote:I've been in marketing for over 20 years and had the opportunity to work with an two-time Inc. 500 company and I'm flabbergastted at how incredibly awful the local shortlines are at marketing themselves. Some are certainly better than others but it's being more like the "tallest dwarf in the circus" than something that is truly meaningful.

Well, the market is fairly limited... you only have so many industries located along your ROW and you can only beat a path to their doors so many times. Granted, persistence pays off in some instances, but that's not always the case. And lately, for a company to relocate to an industrial zoned property along the ROW usually takes a heavy effort by the local IDA, tax incentives and involvement of local elected officials (i.e., the Barilla plant on the LAL that's under construction).

Some abandoned industrial properties are no longer viable because of ground pollution from previous owners or the buildings require substantial rehabilitation and haz-mat removal before they can be reused.

It could also be the businesses along the line aren't big enough to justify bulk commodities sitting on a siding for weeks before they can be used (the use of rolling stock isn't free ya know!).

Hey, some IDA's work with the railroad, others don't even know what rail service is - or care. It's not just the railroad, but the community and the microeconomics of the region. Why is Batavia jumping with rail service, and Arcade or Gowanda are not? CSX service off that Chicago Line in Batavia is the same "25 miles-in-three-days" service Arcade gets from NS.

B&P will never - EVER market that line again effectively enough to justify the cost of getting it open....not when trucks from Springville could be loaded in North Collins or Arcade and end up in the same South Buffalo Yard for switching.

Excursion-wise, it would be a shame to see it go because it's such a beautiful ride, and the architecturally significant stations add to the history of it, but I don't know where you go to get it done. You've got casinos on the waterfront and casinos in hillbilly country, with museums at each end, linked by a wonderfully scenic ride....and only broken-hearted supporters with no money in between.

Maybe the State should just buy it for a buck, split the steel and ties up between Arcade and Gowanda, scrap what's left over, and see what happens...maybe the B&SW Division of the Erie would get hooked back into the old Erie Main, and the A&A could get back to Attica, .....and do, what again?

...oof.

Gang, the simple truth is that no one realizes the sheer extent of the damage to the right-of-way.

Not counting ties, rails, switch frogs, crossing circuitry, bridge & switch timbers, bridge repairs; the line would require AT MINIMUM a million tons of ballast, not including rip-rap or steel-reinforced concrete for bank stablization. BEFORE that, you would need to run a woodchip hopper-train just to remove the trees from the line.

Cascade Trestle, if optimists are lucky, is in as good condition as Kinzua was BEFORE restoration efforts began.

The quicksand pits have swallowed TRAINS of decommissioned freight cars. B&O and Chessie dumped trains into the quagmire, TRYING to thwart SOME of its voracious appetite. Level of success: NEGATIVE ZERO %

THEN lets begin actual railroad restoration... After TWO steam engines went thundering over the line, 261 came up through for the steamtown openning in 1994, and I beleive in 1992, NS ran the 611 up through the area as well; the line will most likely need the COMPLETE replacement of EVERY tie on the line. Figure roughly 3500 ties per mile, times $45 a tie for new (based on a major BULK discount, assuming you can get them.. NS, CSX, BNSF, UP & KCS have nearly a hundred million ties on backorder) times the number of miles from Buffalo to Ashford Jct. At least a $157,000 per mile just in ties. The, lets begin laying rail... Asuming 50% of the physical rail is reusable, that still leaves purchasing several thousand tons of new rail, since used rail is nearly as expensive as new due to scrap steel prices.

In addition to the million tons of ballast, also figure a likely 500,000 tons of soil for sub-roadbed... or more.

For what? three cars a week? a thousand bucks a car, three a week, 52 weeks a years... $156,000 in revenue annually... minus operating expenses: maintenance, diesel fuel, railroad retirement taxes, income taxes, employee benefits, dispatcher, increased workload on already over-taxed infrastructure.

$12,000 in annual profit... what do you think is the lenght of time to earn back JUST restoration costs?

Its a pipe dream.

As for rails to trails? Ha. With the same problems regarding the roadbed, it would still cost nearly 3/4 million a mile to prepare the roadbed (averaged out, based on: all washouts UNDER 75' being bridged using retired 89' flatcars, and greater sized ones using multiple flats welded together with concrete support abutments.)

Then you'd STILL have to rebuild Cascade to full rail structural integrity (since the bridge is designed for rail traffic, its the only way to guage the deterioration of structural integrity over the span's lifetime.) Just remember, Kinzua was condemmed to Rail traffic one year and the next year condemmed to foot traffic. Having visited K&K 2 or 3 yrs previous to the rail condemnation, I can feel safe in saying that the bridge should have been condemned long before.

The final tally from my meager, limited, amateur prospective: the line is SO FAR gone that the only safe & economical course is to place traffic barriers at the ends of all bridges, post Danger Condemned signs along the line and let nature take back that which we took from her... let her reclaim the resourses we refined into a railroad, and walk away. The work involved in lifting the rails at this time exceeeds the value of the scrap steel.

For me, its so far gone that I don't even postulate any ideas on how to ressurect the line for inclusion into my fictious 'Freedom Central' model railroad empire. Considering my line uses steam locomotives and liquid hydrogen gas-turbine-electrics in line-of-road freight, this shows how far gone I consider this line.
-J.D.

-First Duplicate Post-

-Second Duplicate Post-

J.D.: You don't have to sugar coat it, we can take it straight!

Actually your analysis makes a lot of sense to me, showing the railroad's perspective.

I guess we all would just like to go back in time for a while and watch the trains roll through Ashford Junction again, with CPL signals showing High Green all along the way.