Silver Star Downgrade and Diner Discussion

If that were true the Meteor would be full further out than the Star.

Regarding any changes to the Palmetto, I would leave well enough alone. Along with Auto Train, the Palmetto comes the closest to breaking even of all the LD trains. It serves an important market of intermediate cities and towns. For the silver service trains, Adding more sleepers and baggage dorms is the obvious way to go. Back in the day when Seaboard Air Line ran these trains, they regularly were 16 to 18 cars long even into the mid 1960's with two diners. Maybe a little back to the future is in order here. Going forward, completion of the Richmond to Raleigh leg of the SEHSR would speed the Silver Star up. Maybe a Palmetto style of daytime service could be added. Perhaps it could be called the Palmland?

It's also probably worth remembering in all of this that the Auto Train captures a significant portion of the market that used to travel on the Florida services from NYP, PHL and WAS.

Here's a good example of the above re: Auto Train, Friday, Saturday and Sunday of the weekend after New Year's the train is totally sold out for all fares, including coach and business class.

Perhaps an opportunity for Amtrak would be to sell some max price tickets to travelers without cars.

Alex, you have obviously figured out my ulterior motive in my suggestions - a rebirth of the Palmland! A very popular local train through the Carolinas to New York. I remember a long stream of coaches, mostly heavyweight, being added northbound at Hamlet. My favorite car was the heavyweight grill-diner on the rear (ahead of the Miami sleeper). According to noted Trains editor, David P Morgan, they served coldest beer! Yes they did.

But, to address your comment of leaving well enough alone - basically what I'm suggesting is just an extension to the Palmetto on the Star route south of Savannah to Tampa and Miami and renamed the Silver Star. The market north of Savannah would not be substantially affected.

The Meteor becomes the primary train for the Jacksonville/Orlando market, while Tampa gets a morning arrival on the Star and a good schedule from there to Miami with decent spacing between the two trains at both ends of their schedules.

The Palmetto, perhaps renamed Palmland, shifts to the SAL route. Its evening departure and early am arrival from/to NYP, provides good connections to all points north. It would then have, southbound, morning arrival in Raleigh and noon in Columbia (two state capitols), and mid afternoon in Savannah and would serve those markets well. I also had the opportunity to ride the Havana/Gulf Coast Special north from Washington in the early morning hours (an ACL counterpart of the Palmland). It too was a long train and was clear evidence of the extent of the historical African-American northern migration in the 60's. I have talked with many families on Amtrak's Palmetto still making that journey, but now to see relatives 'back home'. Ideally, if it could be financed, the train would be extended to Jacksonville.

I do agree, when/if SEHSR comes to pass, the SAL would be the superior route for Silver Service, despite its curves and grades - as compared to ACL. CSX is actively downgrading many former SAL lines in the Carolinas so freight traffic interference would be minimal. The line between Hamlet and Columbia now has no freight traffic for about half the sub division, while the other half has only one local freight.

I was glad to be able to bring up your favorite train, that is, the Palmland. You mentioned my favorite: the Havana Special. I well remember it from childhood riding it from Charleston, SC to Richmond, VA. When you got off at Broad St. Station, one of the first smells was the FFV Cookie plant next door. With the opening up of Cuba, perhaps this name could be revived. I recall a rather fine diner on it that served peanut soup among other offerings.

We're running a bit afield of the scope of the discussion. However, we do have a Palmetto topic: http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=29632" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if you want to talk about a resurrection.

Plus, I posted an interesting link just now in that topic.

Yum?

https://media.amtrak.com/2023/06/amtrak ... er-star-2/

TRADITIONAL DINING ON SILVER METEOR AND SILVER STAR

Amtrak now offers traditional dining for First Class private room customers aboard the Silver Meteor and Silver Star.

The addition of this popular service will feature several dining enhancements—including chef-prepared meals for breakfast, lunch and dinner; table service with glassware, cutlery and white linen tablecloths; vegetarian and vegan menu options; selections for the kids and a complimentary alcoholic drink with dinner.

Traditional dining will be offered as an exclusive, complimentary amenity for customers traveling in First Class private rooms.

This is definitely a positive development. I did an NYC / FL round trip on the Star this year and some of the food was actually inedible. If a teenage boy and a man lovingly referred by his spouse as a "food disposal unit" can't it it, it's got some serious problems. Getting back to the traditional food will be a massive improvement.

From Amtrak Media Relations:

Traditional dining will be offered as an exclusive, complimentary amenity for customers traveling in First Class private rooms.

This is off topic, admittedly, but hardly worth a topic of its own.

It is of interest that the Amtrak propagandists have moved towards the airline term of "customer" for passenger, and definitely away from the Warrington Gang's term of guest.

I was always concerned that "guest" was a legal term (and I certainly defer to our barristers around here on this) defining a contractual relationship. For example, a Landlord must give a tenant "reasonable notice" that he wishes to enter a leased premises, and can only remove that tenant short of a lease's expiration by judicial action known as eviction. On the other hand, with a Guest, that landlord known as an Innkeeper, can enter the Guest's premises on demand and also do same with the Guest's removal (eviction).

But somehow, those around here who were active during the W-Gang's years, knew they had their way with being loose with reality.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:55 am From Amtrak Media Relations:

Traditional dining will be offered as an exclusive, complimentary amenity for customers traveling in First Class private rooms.

This is off topic, admittedly, but hardly worth a topic of its own.

It is of interest that the Amtrak propagandists have moved towards the airline term of "customer" for passenger, and definitely away from the Warrington Gang's term of guest.

I was always concerned that "guest" was a legal term (and I certainly defer to our barristers around here on this) defining a contractual relationship. For example, a Landlord must give a tenant "reasonable notice" that he wishes to enter a leased premises, and can only remove that tenant short of a lease's expiration by judicial action known as eviction. On the other hand, with a Guest, that landlord known as an Innkeeper, can enter the Guest's premises on demand and also do same with the Guest's removal (eviction).

But somehow, those around here who were active during the W-Gang's years, knew they had their way with being loose with reality.

From a legal standpoint there are two types of guests, a "business guest" where the establishment receives some form of compensation from the guest arrangement, and a "social guest" where there is no compensation. A "guest" in a commercial establishment, such as a hotel room, short term paid parking lot, and similar, and likely a similar concept in regard to a railroad passenger, does not enter into a lease agreement. The "guest" receives a "license" for the accommodation, subject to the terms and conditions including disclaimers, and these often contain a provision for termination at will by the licensor. State laws on this subject vary somewhat, and add federal law into the mix, but generally this is how these matters work.

Thank you, Mr. Brown, for stepping up and clarifying these terms. I guess Amtrak did not expose themselves to any potential civil liability as a Conductor has authority to remove a passenger from a train when presented with reasonable cause. Such of course must be done consistent with the passenger's safety, but there are usually some Red and Blue "gumballs" extending such passenger a "welcome".

I confess, I've been kicked off a train. This occurred as I recall during '18 traveling from Munich to Salzburg. The DB Conductrix was "not exactly a linguist" nor am I. But with a little help from another passenger, I didn't have the correct ticket, which was for a Bayern Regional, and this was a Euro City. No matter my "it's just a train, Second Class" was to no avail. She was going to "put me off". At first I was wondering if she was going to stop the train in middle of nowhere and shove me out on the tracks, but she allowed me to stay on until Rosenheim.

About a half hour later, a Bayern showed up and I completed the journey to Salzburg without further incident.

Oh, and the Polizei; yes they were patrolling the platforms (quite common over there), but could care less about me.